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I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. I'd define "spying" as any data collection that users a

I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. I'd define "spying" as any data collection that users are not informed of. Go tool is an open-source development tool - people expect open-source development tools to serve the users, not the developers (to the detriment of the user). That's the whole point of the whole open-source (and free-software) movement. [A significant number of] users do not want their tools to send any data from their machines that they themselves haven't allowed it to. To create an open-source development tool that sends data by default is a deception tactic - it works because most people trust open-source tools, and because most people won't know the data is being sent by that particular tool. The deception part is what bugs me the most. I may or may not be against telemetry in general, but I am definitely against deception of the users. And providing a few lines in the release notes counts as "informing the users" as much as changing a few lines in the TOS counts as "informing the users" - in my opinion, doesn't.

acdha 4y ago
> I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. One typically doesn’t associate that with extensive public comment so using that term seems like it’s contributing more heat than light.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? "Spying" is not an analogy, it's a verb that describes the act of collection information that you aren't authorized to collect. In case of opt-out telemetry without user consent, it's a perfectly fitting word. One could also argue that "telemetry" is under-descriptive, since it does not account for the fact that it's turned on by default. > Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. Deception is the act of giving people false information for the sake of achieving a goal, the ethics of the underlying motive is irrelevant.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Again, the reason I think “spy” is an editorial choice to express an opinion is that in common English usage that work implies hostile intent. It's not just that some data is being recorded but that it's done with the understanding and desire to harm the subject. Contrast with “telemetry”, which is value-neutral and simply describes the mechanism of collecting data and transmitting it to be recorded somewhere else. I don't think it's appropriate to use “spying” because there's no evidence of hostility here and considerable evidence to the contrary in the form of the public discussion and the proposal starting with various mechanisms limiting what is collected, how frequently it's reported, and preventing covert manipulation of the telemetry system.
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      The very act of collecting information without consent is the act of hostility. The rest of the technicalities are irrelevant, because none of them have anything to do with consent. There is no class of data whatsoever that is okay to collect without users' consent.
      - acdha 4y ago
        This is an ideological statement. You’re free to believe it’s true but it’s not how those words used in normal discourse and you’ll probably find your evangelism more productive if you clearly state this up front.
        bheadmaster 4y ago
        > This is an ideological statement. Yes, privacy is an ideological problem. The fact that the HN crowd now believes it's okay to collect data without others' consent makes me wonder how cooked the frog really is nowdays.
      - hardware2win 4y ago
        With this definition everything is hostile towards you, thus makes this concept not so useful. If I do see you in shop, then Im collecting informations about you, yet you didnt consent to me anything. Everything is up to what data is sent. Crash log? Fine All File names on my pc? Bad
hardware2win 4y ago
>Go tool is an open-source development tool - people expect open-source development tools to serve the users, not the developers (to the detriment of the user). That's the whole point of the whole open-source (and free-software) movement. [A significant number of] users do not want their tools to send any data from their machines that they themselves haven't allowed it to Sorry, but I think you just made it up. OSS makes stuff somewhat transparent and auditable, thats it. Also users do benefit indirectly by telemetry because they get better tools. Anyway what would be the other benefit of dev? That he has to spend his unpaid free time on fixing yet another crash report? Whats wrong with anonymouse tel. collection.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > OSS makes stuff somewhat transparent and auditable, thats it. Which makes users expect it to not have nasty stuff like spyware (ahem, "opt-out telemetry") bundled with it. > Whats wrong with anonymouse tel. collection. Nothing, we're not talking about anonymous telemetry collection per-se, we're talking about telemetry being opt-out.

acdha 4y ago

> I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. One typically doesn’t associate that with extensive public comment so using that term seems like it’s contributing more heat than light.

bheadmaster 4y ago
> Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? "Spying" is not an analogy, it's a verb that describes the act of collection information that you aren't authorized to collect. In case of opt-out telemetry without user consent, it's a perfectly fitting word. One could also argue that "telemetry" is under-descriptive, since it does not account for the fact that it's turned on by default. > Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. Deception is the act of giving people false information for the sake of achieving a goal, the ethics of the underlying motive is irrelevant.
- acdha 4y ago
  Again, the reason I think “spy” is an editorial choice to express an opinion is that in common English usage that work implies hostile intent. It's not just that some data is being recorded but that it's done with the understanding and desire to harm the subject. Contrast with “telemetry”, which is value-neutral and simply describes the mechanism of collecting data and transmitting it to be recorded somewhere else. I don't think it's appropriate to use “spying” because there's no evidence of hostility here and considerable evidence to the contrary in the form of the public discussion and the proposal starting with various mechanisms limiting what is collected, how frequently it's reported, and preventing covert manipulation of the telemetry system.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    The very act of collecting information without consent is the act of hostility. The rest of the technicalities are irrelevant, because none of them have anything to do with consent. There is no class of data whatsoever that is okay to collect without users' consent.
    - acdha 4y ago
      This is an ideological statement. You’re free to believe it’s true but it’s not how those words used in normal discourse and you’ll probably find your evangelism more productive if you clearly state this up front.
      - bheadmaster 4y ago
        > This is an ideological statement. Yes, privacy is an ideological problem. The fact that the HN crowd now believes it's okay to collect data without others' consent makes me wonder how cooked the frog really is nowdays.
    - hardware2win 4y ago
      With this definition everything is hostile towards you, thus makes this concept not so useful. If I do see you in shop, then Im collecting informations about you, yet you didnt consent to me anything. Everything is up to what data is sent. Crash log? Fine All File names on my pc? Bad

hardware2win 4y ago

>Go tool is an open-source development tool - people expect open-source development tools to serve the users, not the developers (to the detriment of the user). That's the whole point of the whole open-source (and free-software) movement. [A significant number of] users do not want their tools to send any data from their machines that they themselves haven't allowed it to Sorry, but I think you just made it up. OSS makes stuff somewhat transparent and auditable, thats it. Also users do benefit indirectly by telemetry because they get better tools. Anyway what would be the other benefit of dev? That he has to spend his unpaid free time on fixing yet another crash report? Whats wrong with anonymouse tel. collection.

bheadmaster 4y ago
> OSS makes stuff somewhat transparent and auditable, thats it. Which makes users expect it to not have nasty stuff like spyware (ahem, "opt-out telemetry") bundled with it. > Whats wrong with anonymouse tel. collection. Nothing, we're not talking about anonymous telemetry collection per-se, we're talking about telemetry being opt-out.