4 ms·

That doesn't matter because earthquake deaths are big and obvious and a bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets doesn't attract news. People see "ho

That doesn't matter because earthquake deaths are big and obvious and a bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets doesn't attract news. People see "house fall, housing bad" and then demand safer construction so the death will be hidden elsewhere.

inglor_cz 4y ago
"bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets" Is that common in Turkey? It rather sounds like an American extrapolating from the situation on the Tenderloin. In the Muslim world, extended families tend to stick together more than in the West and provide their members with some safety net. Your crazy uncle will have just a cot in a small side room, but won't be left alone in the street to fend for himself.
- notch898a 4y ago
  I am extrapolating from living in Rojava, which is as close as I can get to Turkey without getting executed.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Is non-war-related homelessness common in Rojava? As far as my knowledge of the Muslim world goes, families seem to stick together way more than in Europe and won't simply let one of their own in the street.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      I don't think the war can reliably be separated from the issue anywhere in the Turkey/Syria/Iraq region, but I saw some desperate housing on the outskirts of Qamishlo. I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it. Also the Kurds, who are a big portion of inhabitants in South Turkey, tend to be less religious in general than residents of many of the ME countries. Plenty of non-muslims, orphans, etc.
      - inglor_cz 4y ago
        "tend to be less religious" That is what I have heard too, but family/society patterns tend to linger for a generation or two after the religiosity has subsided. Czechia, where I live, has only about 13 per cent of self-declared Christians, but the main Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas are still almost universally observed. The trace is still strong, even though the religious core has mostly evaporated. "I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it." I am not certain that the bad housing was actually much cheaper when sold than it would be if the codes were at least somewhat respected. People who do this kind of shady stuff will still try to sell at the highest possible market prices. This is a notorious problem in China: very expensive apartments of horrible quality. Once a few crooks coordinate with the corrupt officials to capture the local market, you don't have much choice but to accept their conditions or go pound sand.
        notch898a 4y ago
        Yeah I totally acknowledge cultural aspects associated with religion live on. Of course your family has to have a place to invite the family in anyways, which they may or may not be able to afford the code house. Corruption is another factor at play, but they can be confounding factors. This is evident when you see even SELF-BUILT homes often have to follow codes -- what is the owner supposed to be defrauding himself or something? Code are precisely why I haven't built my own home due to restrictions on minimum sq ft etc where I live as I could easily afford land and to build a house but not an up to code house so I'm stuck renting and losing lots more money in the process. And corruption cuts both ways -- giving more power and rules to zoning enforcement just gives opportunity for corruption to live with the zoning enforcement whereas having no zoning means no zoning enforcement people to corrupt. In US code enforcement has initiated action to destroy tiny homes for homeless people etc which explicitly shows these people exposed to the elements as a result of code. As for China, despite significant 'party' corruption, they have one of the highest family owned house ownership rates in the world, far surpassing US and Czechia. I would be very happy for us to have policies that end with such egalitarian home ownership.

inglor_cz 4y ago

"bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets" Is that common in Turkey? It rather sounds like an American extrapolating from the situation on the Tenderloin. In the Muslim world, extended families tend to stick together more than in the West and provide their members with some safety net. Your crazy uncle will have just a cot in a small side room, but won't be left alone in the street to fend for himself.

notch898a 4y ago
I am extrapolating from living in Rojava, which is as close as I can get to Turkey without getting executed.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Is non-war-related homelessness common in Rojava? As far as my knowledge of the Muslim world goes, families seem to stick together way more than in Europe and won't simply let one of their own in the street.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    I don't think the war can reliably be separated from the issue anywhere in the Turkey/Syria/Iraq region, but I saw some desperate housing on the outskirts of Qamishlo. I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it. Also the Kurds, who are a big portion of inhabitants in South Turkey, tend to be less religious in general than residents of many of the ME countries. Plenty of non-muslims, orphans, etc.
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      "tend to be less religious" That is what I have heard too, but family/society patterns tend to linger for a generation or two after the religiosity has subsided. Czechia, where I live, has only about 13 per cent of self-declared Christians, but the main Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas are still almost universally observed. The trace is still strong, even though the religious core has mostly evaporated. "I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it." I am not certain that the bad housing was actually much cheaper when sold than it would be if the codes were at least somewhat respected. People who do this kind of shady stuff will still try to sell at the highest possible market prices. This is a notorious problem in China: very expensive apartments of horrible quality. Once a few crooks coordinate with the corrupt officials to capture the local market, you don't have much choice but to accept their conditions or go pound sand.
      - notch898a 4y ago
        Yeah I totally acknowledge cultural aspects associated with religion live on. Of course your family has to have a place to invite the family in anyways, which they may or may not be able to afford the code house. Corruption is another factor at play, but they can be confounding factors. This is evident when you see even SELF-BUILT homes often have to follow codes -- what is the owner supposed to be defrauding himself or something? Code are precisely why I haven't built my own home due to restrictions on minimum sq ft etc where I live as I could easily afford land and to build a house but not an up to code house so I'm stuck renting and losing lots more money in the process. And corruption cuts both ways -- giving more power and rules to zoning enforcement just gives opportunity for corruption to live with the zoning enforcement whereas having no zoning means no zoning enforcement people to corrupt. In US code enforcement has initiated action to destroy tiny homes for homeless people etc which explicitly shows these people exposed to the elements as a result of code. As for China, despite significant 'party' corruption, they have one of the highest family owned house ownership rates in the world, far surpassing US and Czechia. I would be very happy for us to have policies that end with such egalitarian home ownership.