4 ms·

I'm inclined to agree with you; the thought of just "some dude" mucking about with the genetics of a virus is horrifying. And yet, computers are extremely powe

by gptgpp 4y ago

I'm inclined to agree with you; the thought of just "some dude" mucking about with the genetics of a virus is horrifying. And yet, computers are extremely powerful tools, arguably the most powerful we have created. And look what free access to them has accomplished... Sure, it has caused quite a bit of cyber crime, but it's all balanced out by a massive amount of open and freely exchanged innovation. Now imagine an alternate history where we somehow restricted access to programming to people with computer science degrees working under registered companies... I think that history would be pretty regressive. So I think your reaction is understandable, I share it, but also hold some significant doubts.

imachine1980_ 4y ago
You can't kill yourself writing c++ code, a buggy local server means your webpage is down, you aren't advocating for making your own insulin analyzer firmware, and using it for people whiout diabetes symptoms.
- gptgpp 4y ago
  You can absolutely kill yourself writing C++ code... To my shame, I almost did when I was fucking around with a microcontroller hooked up to some fairly powerful motors. Not everyone uses code to make smartphone apps and video games, or computer applications. A vast amount is used to control everything from your car to your toaster :/ edit: Oh, I also botched the charging for some lithium ion cells and caused them to combust. Shit, now I feel like I'm refuting your point about death-by-C++, but also supporting that we need more regulations to protect against idiots like myself.
  - GTP 4y ago
    >A vast amount is used to control everything from your car to your toaster :/ True, and hopefully after the Therac-25 incident we learned that, while it is generally fine having people playing with programming, for certain applications it is best to leave it to professionals with a deep understanding of what they're doing. >Shit, now I feel like I'm refuting your point about death-by-C++, but also supporting that we need more regulations to protect against idiots like myself. Yes, we likely need more regulation, at least for safety critical applications (but I don't know if those are already in place).
arrosenberg 4y ago
Your genome is so much more complex than C - if you can't appreciate that, it sort of reinforces the fact that average people should not muck around in it. I, a computer programmer with a fancy degree in biochemistry, would not touch this stuff without a significant amount of work up front to understand what I am messing with.
- gptgpp 4y ago
  I appreciate that, and also appreciate that absolutely nobody has the ability to understand the complete workings of a modern computer -- from the OS to the assembly, to the micro-architecture of the silicon, memory, networking, etc. Even just having an expert level in any one of those pieces is a serious undertaking. Similarly, albeit to a vastly greater degree, nobody entirely understands the multitude of cellular machinery, their interactions, their chemical processes, or encoding, in any species. Even 50% in a single organism is probably lifetimes away. So yeah, biohackers are equal parts arrogant, reckless, and stupid... Life should be given appropriate respect, and it's hard to see how "DIY bioengineering" doesn't spit in the face of that. Yet I would hate to see a future where people are barred from their own physiology, their own code. Removing your right to mess with your own life just seems authoritarian and oppressive to me, at the most fundamental level. Editing OTHER people's genome should be highly regulated, as well as anything that has the potential to reproduce outside a controlled environment. This of course includes microbes within your own body, viral infections, gut bacteria, etc. But I think people not being able to edit their own code is horrifically dystopian. Should probably be a requirement that you also have your reproductive rights removed too though, since your descendants wouldn't have a say.
  - arrosenberg 4y ago
    > But I think people not being able to edit their own code is horrifically dystopian. Should probably be a requirement that you also have your reproductive rights removed too though, since your descendants wouldn't have a say. This is a hysterical overreaction to what I said. First of all, no one is stopping you for editing your own code - you can stand out in the sun all day and pick up point mutations until they kill you. Go to the gym, and your body will start upregulating certain protein factors to repair muscle. Change your diet and your gut microbiome will change. If you can find some radioactive rocks, you can really go to town! No one is stopping you. What I am saying is that you are so grossly underinformed about the complexity of the genome and human biochemistry, that to even compare it to computer architecture can only be described as arrogance. People who alter their genomes in any measurable way will mostly suffer greatly and die a painful death, so yeah, it should probably be regulated to professionals for the foreseeable future. > Editing OTHER people's genome should be highly regulated, as well as anything that has the potential to reproduce outside a controlled environment. This of course includes microbes within your own body, viral infections, gut bacteria, etc. What happens if a virus picks up your mutation and spreads it throughout the population?

by gptgpp 4y ago

imachine1980_ 4y ago

You can't kill yourself writing c++ code, a buggy local server means your webpage is down, you aren't advocating for making your own insulin analyzer firmware, and using it for people whiout diabetes symptoms.

gptgpp 4y ago
You can absolutely kill yourself writing C++ code... To my shame, I almost did when I was fucking around with a microcontroller hooked up to some fairly powerful motors. Not everyone uses code to make smartphone apps and video games, or computer applications. A vast amount is used to control everything from your car to your toaster :/ edit: Oh, I also botched the charging for some lithium ion cells and caused them to combust. Shit, now I feel like I'm refuting your point about death-by-C++, but also supporting that we need more regulations to protect against idiots like myself.
- GTP 4y ago
  >A vast amount is used to control everything from your car to your toaster :/ True, and hopefully after the Therac-25 incident we learned that, while it is generally fine having people playing with programming, for certain applications it is best to leave it to professionals with a deep understanding of what they're doing. >Shit, now I feel like I'm refuting your point about death-by-C++, but also supporting that we need more regulations to protect against idiots like myself. Yes, we likely need more regulation, at least for safety critical applications (but I don't know if those are already in place).

arrosenberg 4y ago

Your genome is so much more complex than C - if you can't appreciate that, it sort of reinforces the fact that average people should not muck around in it. I, a computer programmer with a fancy degree in biochemistry, would not touch this stuff without a significant amount of work up front to understand what I am messing with.

gptgpp 4y ago
I appreciate that, and also appreciate that absolutely nobody has the ability to understand the complete workings of a modern computer -- from the OS to the assembly, to the micro-architecture of the silicon, memory, networking, etc. Even just having an expert level in any one of those pieces is a serious undertaking. Similarly, albeit to a vastly greater degree, nobody entirely understands the multitude of cellular machinery, their interactions, their chemical processes, or encoding, in any species. Even 50% in a single organism is probably lifetimes away. So yeah, biohackers are equal parts arrogant, reckless, and stupid... Life should be given appropriate respect, and it's hard to see how "DIY bioengineering" doesn't spit in the face of that. Yet I would hate to see a future where people are barred from their own physiology, their own code. Removing your right to mess with your own life just seems authoritarian and oppressive to me, at the most fundamental level. Editing OTHER people's genome should be highly regulated, as well as anything that has the potential to reproduce outside a controlled environment. This of course includes microbes within your own body, viral infections, gut bacteria, etc. But I think people not being able to edit their own code is horrifically dystopian. Should probably be a requirement that you also have your reproductive rights removed too though, since your descendants wouldn't have a say.
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  > But I think people not being able to edit their own code is horrifically dystopian. Should probably be a requirement that you also have your reproductive rights removed too though, since your descendants wouldn't have a say. This is a hysterical overreaction to what I said. First of all, no one is stopping you for editing your own code - you can stand out in the sun all day and pick up point mutations until they kill you. Go to the gym, and your body will start upregulating certain protein factors to repair muscle. Change your diet and your gut microbiome will change. If you can find some radioactive rocks, you can really go to town! No one is stopping you. What I am saying is that you are so grossly underinformed about the complexity of the genome and human biochemistry, that to even compare it to computer architecture can only be described as arrogance. People who alter their genomes in any measurable way will mostly suffer greatly and die a painful death, so yeah, it should probably be regulated to professionals for the foreseeable future. > Editing OTHER people's genome should be highly regulated, as well as anything that has the potential to reproduce outside a controlled environment. This of course includes microbes within your own body, viral infections, gut bacteria, etc. What happens if a virus picks up your mutation and spreads it throughout the population?