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I like Clojure, but unfortunately for web development, there isn't a great stack and for data science/ML/AI (which is a great fit for clojure), python dominates

I like Clojure, but unfortunately for web development, there isn't a great stack and for data science/ML/AI (which is a great fit for clojure), python dominates the market. What is the niche for Clojure, or why should keep using it in 2023? P.S: I like it a lot, but either I do golang or ror for web dev, or python/pytorch for data sciences/AI stuff, C# for game development. I don't think i can get more productive with Clojure in any scenario, that I'm exposed too, what I'm missing?

ARandomerDude 4y ago
It is actually a great choice for unopinionated server-side web development. Frontend development is simply awesome in ClojureScript. Give me Reagent + Shadow CLJS over plain React (or React Native) any day.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  >Frontend development is simply awesome in ClojureScript Is that still tied to that google closure abomination ? I've not been in CLJ ecosystem for >5 years now but last time I used CLJS I remember they went all in on google Closure and it was a major PITA to use the rest of JS ecosystem because of it. Every time I use React I think how it would be great to use Clojure for that, but last time I tried the tooling overhead just killed it for me.
  - lgessler 4y ago
    > Is that still tied to that google closure abomination ? I've not been in CLJ ecosystem for >5 years now but last time I used CLJS I remember they went all in on google Closure and it was a major PITA to use the rest of JS ecosystem because of it. This has been solved now--there's a blessed CLJS solution[1][2] as well as a third-party compiler with NPM support[3] which many prefer. [1]: https://clojurescript.org/news/2017-07-12-clojurescript-is-not-an-island-integrating-node-modules https://clojurescript.org/news/2017-07-12-clojurescript-is-n... [2]: https://cljs.github.io/api/compiler-options/npm-deps https://cljs.github.io/api/compiler-options/npm-deps [3]: https://shadow-cljs.github.io/docs/UsersGuide.html#npm https://shadow-cljs.github.io/docs/UsersGuide.html#npm
  - simongray 4y ago
    Shadow-cljs makes everything very easy these days.
- ndr 4y ago
  For you and anyone else with experience, is that the most common/battle-tested cljs stack? What about servers-side, any equivalent Django or FastAPI?
  - dgb23 4y ago
    If you want a complete, integrated "stack" that stitches some of the most common libraries together in a uniform structure you might have a look at kit: https://kit-clj.github.io/ https://kit-clj.github.io/
    - cutler 4y ago
      If you're coming to Kit from Luminus make sure you understand Kit's use of Integrant which involves passing `query-fn` down from the route to every function which accesses SQL. It was a deal-breaker for me.
  - dack 4y ago
    The cljs stack I hear about a lot (and use) is ShadowCLJS with reagent (https://reagent-project.github.io/ https://reagent-project.github.io/) and re-frame (https://day8.github.io/re-frame/ https://day8.github.io/re-frame/). ShadowCLJS is more of a build tool, but is really well documented and easy to use. Reagent is basically react but a simpler API, and re-frame is a layer on top of that kinda like redux. It's overkill for some apps but I find it's actually super easy to work with and not as much complexity as I thought. For backend there is luminus (https://luminusweb.com/ https://luminusweb.com/) or Kit (https://kit-clj.github.io/ https://kit-clj.github.io/). They are basically project templates that wire together a ton of popular solutions for various things - database access, migrations, security, html templating, etc. Also includes frontend frameworks like re-frame if you want. edit: forgot to mention fulcro (https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/ https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/) which is an interesting full stack solution. I haven't used it though so can't comment, but it sure seems documented well!
    - ndr 4y ago
      Thank you. What about leiningen vs boot vs deps.edn? Did any of this come ahead as a winner in the recent years? It's been a while since I've looked into this.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  Yes, ClojureScript is definitely on my learning list, we however decided to avoid one more transpilation tool, and accepted the fact that we have to write typescript. > Give me Reagent + Shadow CLJS over plain React (or React Native) any day. So that is for heavy js based applications, not for something light like rails + stimulus.js, right?
lgessler 4y ago
> I like Clojure, but unfortunately for web development, there isn't a great stack What do you feel is missing? Certainly there are options (something as frameworky as Fulcro, something as barebones as a React wrapper like Reagent), so there must be some itch you can't scratch?
- pelasaco 4y ago
  wow, first time seeing Fulcro, and it has a great documentation https://book.fulcrologic.com/ https://book.fulcrologic.com/, definitely will play with that, thanks!
  - lgessler 4y ago
    Yeah, it's too heavy for some things, but it's situationally very awesome. Fulcro takes the fantasy of "reusable components" very seriously, more seriously than any other frontend framework I'm aware of, and designs from the ground up to allow for that. Be sure to go to #fulcro in the Clojurians slack with any questions/comments--it's a very friendly community in there.
Heliosmaster 4y ago
Check Clerk (https://clerk.vision/ https://clerk.vision/) for the boundaries between data science / data viz / moldable programming

ARandomerDude 4y ago

It is actually a great choice for unopinionated server-side web development. Frontend development is simply awesome in ClojureScript. Give me Reagent + Shadow CLJS over plain React (or React Native) any day.

moonchrome 4y ago
>Frontend development is simply awesome in ClojureScript Is that still tied to that google closure abomination ? I've not been in CLJ ecosystem for >5 years now but last time I used CLJS I remember they went all in on google Closure and it was a major PITA to use the rest of JS ecosystem because of it. Every time I use React I think how it would be great to use Clojure for that, but last time I tried the tooling overhead just killed it for me.
- lgessler 4y ago
  > Is that still tied to that google closure abomination ? I've not been in CLJ ecosystem for >5 years now but last time I used CLJS I remember they went all in on google Closure and it was a major PITA to use the rest of JS ecosystem because of it. This has been solved now--there's a blessed CLJS solution[1][2] as well as a third-party compiler with NPM support[3] which many prefer. [1]: https://clojurescript.org/news/2017-07-12-clojurescript-is-not-an-island-integrating-node-modules https://clojurescript.org/news/2017-07-12-clojurescript-is-n... [2]: https://cljs.github.io/api/compiler-options/npm-deps https://cljs.github.io/api/compiler-options/npm-deps [3]: https://shadow-cljs.github.io/docs/UsersGuide.html#npm https://shadow-cljs.github.io/docs/UsersGuide.html#npm
- simongray 4y ago
  Shadow-cljs makes everything very easy these days.
ndr 4y ago
For you and anyone else with experience, is that the most common/battle-tested cljs stack? What about servers-side, any equivalent Django or FastAPI?
- dgb23 4y ago
  If you want a complete, integrated "stack" that stitches some of the most common libraries together in a uniform structure you might have a look at kit: https://kit-clj.github.io/ https://kit-clj.github.io/
  - cutler 4y ago
    If you're coming to Kit from Luminus make sure you understand Kit's use of Integrant which involves passing `query-fn` down from the route to every function which accesses SQL. It was a deal-breaker for me.
- dack 4y ago
  The cljs stack I hear about a lot (and use) is ShadowCLJS with reagent (https://reagent-project.github.io/ https://reagent-project.github.io/) and re-frame (https://day8.github.io/re-frame/ https://day8.github.io/re-frame/). ShadowCLJS is more of a build tool, but is really well documented and easy to use. Reagent is basically react but a simpler API, and re-frame is a layer on top of that kinda like redux. It's overkill for some apps but I find it's actually super easy to work with and not as much complexity as I thought. For backend there is luminus (https://luminusweb.com/ https://luminusweb.com/) or Kit (https://kit-clj.github.io/ https://kit-clj.github.io/). They are basically project templates that wire together a ton of popular solutions for various things - database access, migrations, security, html templating, etc. Also includes frontend frameworks like re-frame if you want. edit: forgot to mention fulcro (https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/ https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/) which is an interesting full stack solution. I haven't used it though so can't comment, but it sure seems documented well!
  - ndr 4y ago
    Thank you. What about leiningen vs boot vs deps.edn? Did any of this come ahead as a winner in the recent years? It's been a while since I've looked into this.
pelasaco 4y ago
Yes, ClojureScript is definitely on my learning list, we however decided to avoid one more transpilation tool, and accepted the fact that we have to write typescript. > Give me Reagent + Shadow CLJS over plain React (or React Native) any day. So that is for heavy js based applications, not for something light like rails + stimulus.js, right?

lgessler 4y ago

> I like Clojure, but unfortunately for web development, there isn't a great stack What do you feel is missing? Certainly there are options (something as frameworky as Fulcro, something as barebones as a React wrapper like Reagent), so there must be some itch you can't scratch?

pelasaco 4y ago
wow, first time seeing Fulcro, and it has a great documentation https://book.fulcrologic.com/ https://book.fulcrologic.com/, definitely will play with that, thanks!
- lgessler 4y ago
  Yeah, it's too heavy for some things, but it's situationally very awesome. Fulcro takes the fantasy of "reusable components" very seriously, more seriously than any other frontend framework I'm aware of, and designs from the ground up to allow for that. Be sure to go to #fulcro in the Clojurians slack with any questions/comments--it's a very friendly community in there.

Heliosmaster 4y ago

Check Clerk (https://clerk.vision/ https://clerk.vision/) for the boundaries between data science / data viz / moldable programming