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In Germany the price you see is the price you pay. It's set in law. This includes taxes and any other fees they might want to add. If someone tried to add rando

by nicbou 4y ago

In Germany the price you see is the price you pay. It's set in law. This includes taxes and any other fees they might want to add. If someone tried to add random fees like AirBnB does in the US, you would not have to pay them. Wouldn't that solve most of the problem?

dataflow 4y ago
I'm not sure how that works in Germany, but these fees are "seen". It's not like you're not legally agreeing to them. The trouble is they're only seen when you're, say, at the last screen of checking out. How do they avoid that in Germany?
- sigwinch28 4y ago
  law and enforcement
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > How do they avoid that in Germany? By requiring any listed price to be inclusive of fees. Australia does the same. No "$100/night" in the search results if the checkout adds a $20/night resort fee.
- chmod775 4y ago
  > The trouble is they're only seen when you're, say, at the last screen of checking out. How do they avoid that in Germany? If they're adding a surcharge for something you would reasonably expect to be included in the offering which they advertised at a lower price, it would be false advertising. You'd at least run afoul of the act against unfair competition: German version / English version §5 Misleading commercial practices: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5.html / https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg.html#p0061 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg... §5a Misleading by omission: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5a.html / https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg.html#p0073 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg... Some quotes: > A commercial practice is regarded as misleading if it contains false statements or other information suited to deception regarding the following circumstances: [..] 2. the reason for the purchase, such as the existence of a specific price advantage, the price or the manner in which the price is calculated [..] > The following are also regarded as an omission of information: 1. the hiding of material information, 2. the provision of material information in an unclear, unintelligible or ambiguous manner, 3. the provision of material information in an untimely manner.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    I had the Preisangabengesetz in mind, which is a separate text specifically about listing prices with all taxes and fees included.
    - chmod775 4y ago
      > I had the Preisangabengesetz in mind, which is a separate text specifically about listing prices with all taxes and fees included. That's not what it says though. It merely empowers the BMWK - with agreement of the federal assembly - to decide in which manner prices of consumer goods are be provided and calculated. They then may decide that prices of airline tickets have to be listed a certain way. It also empowers the BMWK to pretty much turn businesses upside down to make sure they're following these rules. That's pretty much all it says. It's a really short law of just two paragraphs (used to be three, but one got removed). https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/preisangg/PreisAngG.pdf https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/preisangg/PreisAngG.pdf
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  By showing them straight away - it's not like it's a difficult concept tbh. And it's enforced by regulations and fines if they are not adhered to. Again, nothing overly complicated there.
bastawhiz 4y ago
Pretty much, yes. If the fees are visible up front, there's no point in making them fees, they're just part of the price. By making them fees, they can be hidden until you've already made your choice and are about to pay, or hidden until some point in the future where you try to do something like stop using the service. The problem isn't really the cost, it's the deception. It tricks consumers and prevents an efficient market for goods and services, and as the article states, creates a particularly bad experience for at least some consumers that the business can justify in the name of profit.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  The problem isn't the deception. I'm sure they would argue that you see the fee before you agree. The real problem is that fees are much more difficult to price-shop. Fees are anticompetitive.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    The dark patterns that make it very difficult to price shop are inherently an attempt at deception. They're deceiving you into choosing an option that's more expensive than it initially appears. If everyone knew this was happening, they would spend more time trying to avoid falling prey to it. Nobody is paying an extra fifty bucks because they don't want to spend the extra twenty minutes. But if every consumer knew this, it wouldn't be deception, it would be friction. And companies would eventually stop doing it to make their service more appealing.
TuringNYC 4y ago
>> Wouldn't that solve most of the problem? Yes, but the US Regulators have been "captured" by some of these monopolistic industries, to the point that the monopolies can do these things w/o worrying about laws against them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  "captured" is one way of saying they benefit from it themselves - direct payment (read: corruption), stocks, 'campaign donations', etc. Plenty of ways for politicians to get kickbacks from various industries without it being obvious or direct.
dangwhy 4y ago
> If someone tried to add random fees like AirBnB does in the US, you would not have to pay them. Airbnb adds fees that goes to airbnb ( vs the host). How does that look in germany, its added to the price host sets. Host sees a different price/night on the listing than what she set ? also, Airbnb lets you see cleaning price in the listing, so its not a hidden fee.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  It's listed in the checkout / payment thing I'm sure - it means they cannot bolt additional cost onto things after you've agreed to something.
- nicbou 4y ago
  In Germany it's listed as part of the price on every page. There's no bait and switch as you click through. It's always possible to pay the price you initially see.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Not sure how it looks in the US, but [1] is how a typical AirBnB listing looks on the German website. Right on the listing it just has line items for the nightly cost, cleaning fee, service fee, taxes, and a total (though this is an Italian place, AirBnB listings for places in Germany typically only charge price per day and service fee). The price that's advertised in the overview includes all fees, so you can't appear more attractive by shifting costs to the cleaning fee. 1: https://i.imgur.com/qm7vij3.png https://i.imgur.com/qm7vij3.png
  - dangwhy 4y ago
    thats more fees than usa :D this is usa https://imgur.com/a/FJaKHvS https://imgur.com/a/FJaKHvS
- chucksmash 4y ago
  But it is not taken into account when sorting by lowest price, so you see egregious tricks like "$50/night" AirBnB rooms with a $200 cleaning fee. Hotels do the same thing on HotelTonight. When the amount of the resort fee/cleaning fee ends up doubling the price, that's just dishonesty - even if the truth does eventually come out.
mardifoufs 4y ago
A part from taxes, that's almost exactly how it works in Canada. You won't usually see fees just added after you sign up without your consent, especially if you have a contract. Airbnb does not add fees after the booking, IIRC (at least it never happened to me, and I'm a heavy user). You have a price breakdown and a total, including all the obnoxious cleaning fees, before you even get to the payment page. (Unless you damaged something or trashed the place)
- nicbou 4y ago
  Canadian restaurants are still a shocker when visiting from Europe, with 15% tax plus 15% tip. I always forget at first. Including the tax in the price is so much nicer.
wil421 4y ago
AirBnB is in a completely different league of shady fees. As a consumer it’s hard to differentiate junk fees from mandatory fees imposed by federal, state, county, municipalities fees. As an example I pay different sales taxes for the same internet plan in 2 different states. Another example is my cellphone plan was slightly higher in another city/county than my current residence due to different E911 fees. The difference is usually cents to a dollar.
- nicbou 4y ago
  Those ought to be included in the price. The only exception are optional upgrades, and even those have to be clearly disclosed in advance.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    It's not clear how you would include a per-county E911 fee in any advertised price. How do you know where the person viewing it actually lives?
    - SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
      Disclose that there's a per-county E911 fee in the ad.
      - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
        >* plus government fees and taxes This is a very common feature of such ads. In small print, of course.
    - Adrox 4y ago
      If you can’t know the price, you don’t display a wrong price, simple. You either geo-locate, or maybe put the minimum E911? In EU these kind of sheenings never happen. Airplane sites tried with payment fees, adding 40/50€ for ALL providers. EU changed the law that the price has to include the fee for at least 1 payment… So if the cheapest is paypal at 30€, they have to add 30€ to the price.
amluto 4y ago
It at least makes sense to unbundle cleaning from per-night charges: cleaning isn’t per-night. How does this work in Germany? Do you see a listing like “€100 per night + €40” or “€140 + €100 per additional night”? I would love either of these in the US — both would be massive improvements over “you thought it was $100/night until you clicked a couple times and found the $40”.
- Adrox 4y ago
  Don’t you have to set the dates anyway? If you search for 1 night you get 140$ price. For 2 nights, 240$, 120$ per night. Etc… There is usually A/B testing of total vs. per night. But the most important thing: Price on the first page you see is the same that gonna be charged. Same thing for flight bookings, what you see on the search is what you pay! What inovative concept by the EU!

by nicbou 4y ago

dataflow 4y ago

I'm not sure how that works in Germany, but these fees are "seen". It's not like you're not legally agreeing to them. The trouble is they're only seen when you're, say, at the last screen of checking out. How do they avoid that in Germany?

sigwinch28 4y ago
law and enforcement
ceejayoz 4y ago
> How do they avoid that in Germany? By requiring any listed price to be inclusive of fees. Australia does the same. No "$100/night" in the search results if the checkout adds a $20/night resort fee.
chmod775 4y ago
> The trouble is they're only seen when you're, say, at the last screen of checking out. How do they avoid that in Germany? If they're adding a surcharge for something you would reasonably expect to be included in the offering which they advertised at a lower price, it would be false advertising. You'd at least run afoul of the act against unfair competition: German version / English version §5 Misleading commercial practices: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5.html / https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg.html#p0061 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg... §5a Misleading by omission: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5a.html / https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg.html#p0073 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg... Some quotes: > A commercial practice is regarded as misleading if it contains false statements or other information suited to deception regarding the following circumstances: [..] 2. the reason for the purchase, such as the existence of a specific price advantage, the price or the manner in which the price is calculated [..] > The following are also regarded as an omission of information: 1. the hiding of material information, 2. the provision of material information in an unclear, unintelligible or ambiguous manner, 3. the provision of material information in an untimely manner.
- nicbou 4y ago
  I had the Preisangabengesetz in mind, which is a separate text specifically about listing prices with all taxes and fees included.
  - chmod775 4y ago
    > I had the Preisangabengesetz in mind, which is a separate text specifically about listing prices with all taxes and fees included. That's not what it says though. It merely empowers the BMWK - with agreement of the federal assembly - to decide in which manner prices of consumer goods are be provided and calculated. They then may decide that prices of airline tickets have to be listed a certain way. It also empowers the BMWK to pretty much turn businesses upside down to make sure they're following these rules. That's pretty much all it says. It's a really short law of just two paragraphs (used to be three, but one got removed). https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/preisangg/PreisAngG.pdf https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/preisangg/PreisAngG.pdf
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
By showing them straight away - it's not like it's a difficult concept tbh. And it's enforced by regulations and fines if they are not adhered to. Again, nothing overly complicated there.

bastawhiz 4y ago

Pretty much, yes. If the fees are visible up front, there's no point in making them fees, they're just part of the price. By making them fees, they can be hidden until you've already made your choice and are about to pay, or hidden until some point in the future where you try to do something like stop using the service. The problem isn't really the cost, it's the deception. It tricks consumers and prevents an efficient market for goods and services, and as the article states, creates a particularly bad experience for at least some consumers that the business can justify in the name of profit.

jjoonathan 4y ago
The problem isn't the deception. I'm sure they would argue that you see the fee before you agree. The real problem is that fees are much more difficult to price-shop. Fees are anticompetitive.
- bastawhiz 4y ago
  The dark patterns that make it very difficult to price shop are inherently an attempt at deception. They're deceiving you into choosing an option that's more expensive than it initially appears. If everyone knew this was happening, they would spend more time trying to avoid falling prey to it. Nobody is paying an extra fifty bucks because they don't want to spend the extra twenty minutes. But if every consumer knew this, it wouldn't be deception, it would be friction. And companies would eventually stop doing it to make their service more appealing.

TuringNYC 4y ago

>> Wouldn't that solve most of the problem? Yes, but the US Regulators have been "captured" by some of these monopolistic industries, to the point that the monopolies can do these things w/o worrying about laws against them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
"captured" is one way of saying they benefit from it themselves - direct payment (read: corruption), stocks, 'campaign donations', etc. Plenty of ways for politicians to get kickbacks from various industries without it being obvious or direct.

dangwhy 4y ago

> If someone tried to add random fees like AirBnB does in the US, you would not have to pay them. Airbnb adds fees that goes to airbnb ( vs the host). How does that look in germany, its added to the price host sets. Host sees a different price/night on the listing than what she set ? also, Airbnb lets you see cleaning price in the listing, so its not a hidden fee.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
It's listed in the checkout / payment thing I'm sure - it means they cannot bolt additional cost onto things after you've agreed to something.
nicbou 4y ago
In Germany it's listed as part of the price on every page. There's no bait and switch as you click through. It's always possible to pay the price you initially see.
wongarsu 4y ago
Not sure how it looks in the US, but [1] is how a typical AirBnB listing looks on the German website. Right on the listing it just has line items for the nightly cost, cleaning fee, service fee, taxes, and a total (though this is an Italian place, AirBnB listings for places in Germany typically only charge price per day and service fee). The price that's advertised in the overview includes all fees, so you can't appear more attractive by shifting costs to the cleaning fee. 1: https://i.imgur.com/qm7vij3.png https://i.imgur.com/qm7vij3.png
- dangwhy 4y ago
  thats more fees than usa :D this is usa https://imgur.com/a/FJaKHvS https://imgur.com/a/FJaKHvS
chucksmash 4y ago
But it is not taken into account when sorting by lowest price, so you see egregious tricks like "$50/night" AirBnB rooms with a $200 cleaning fee. Hotels do the same thing on HotelTonight. When the amount of the resort fee/cleaning fee ends up doubling the price, that's just dishonesty - even if the truth does eventually come out.

mardifoufs 4y ago

A part from taxes, that's almost exactly how it works in Canada. You won't usually see fees just added after you sign up without your consent, especially if you have a contract. Airbnb does not add fees after the booking, IIRC (at least it never happened to me, and I'm a heavy user). You have a price breakdown and a total, including all the obnoxious cleaning fees, before you even get to the payment page. (Unless you damaged something or trashed the place)

nicbou 4y ago
Canadian restaurants are still a shocker when visiting from Europe, with 15% tax plus 15% tip. I always forget at first. Including the tax in the price is so much nicer.

wil421 4y ago

AirBnB is in a completely different league of shady fees. As a consumer it’s hard to differentiate junk fees from mandatory fees imposed by federal, state, county, municipalities fees. As an example I pay different sales taxes for the same internet plan in 2 different states. Another example is my cellphone plan was slightly higher in another city/county than my current residence due to different E911 fees. The difference is usually cents to a dollar.

nicbou 4y ago
Those ought to be included in the price. The only exception are optional upgrades, and even those have to be clearly disclosed in advance.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  It's not clear how you would include a per-county E911 fee in any advertised price. How do you know where the person viewing it actually lives?
  - SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
    Disclose that there's a per-county E911 fee in the ad.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      >* plus government fees and taxes This is a very common feature of such ads. In small print, of course.
  - Adrox 4y ago
    If you can’t know the price, you don’t display a wrong price, simple. You either geo-locate, or maybe put the minimum E911? In EU these kind of sheenings never happen. Airplane sites tried with payment fees, adding 40/50€ for ALL providers. EU changed the law that the price has to include the fee for at least 1 payment… So if the cheapest is paypal at 30€, they have to add 30€ to the price.

amluto 4y ago

It at least makes sense to unbundle cleaning from per-night charges: cleaning isn’t per-night. How does this work in Germany? Do you see a listing like “€100 per night + €40” or “€140 + €100 per additional night”? I would love either of these in the US — both would be massive improvements over “you thought it was $100/night until you clicked a couple times and found the $40”.

Adrox 4y ago
Don’t you have to set the dates anyway? If you search for 1 night you get 140$ price. For 2 nights, 240$, 120$ per night. Etc… There is usually A/B testing of total vs. per night. But the most important thing: Price on the first page you see is the same that gonna be charged. Same thing for flight bookings, what you see on the search is what you pay! What inovative concept by the EU!