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You seems to conflate telemetry with spying Uploading crash log to devs to help them fix bugs Or stats about project sizes So they are aware how their users

You seems to conflate telemetry with spying Uploading crash log to devs to help them fix bugs Or stats about project sizes So they are aware how their users use their soft and can optimize

bheadmaster 4y ago
What is the exact difference between spying and telemetry that user hasn't consented to?
- acdha 4y ago
  If we consider the dictionary definition spying has a sense of personal and private information being collected. For telemetry, one of the first questions would be whether the data being collected is the same — for example, something like the version of the C compiler you have installed doesn't seem like nearly as sensitive. The other part is the question of exactly what consent means in this context. If I sneak into your house, I'm spying. If I record what you do when visiting my house, that's arguably still spying. If I say I'm giving you a free meal but at the bottom of the menu there's a warning that I use statistics about which meals are the most popular unless you ask me not to, that doesn't feel like it's in the same category as the previous two even if there's a pretty strong argument that it's best to ask you the first time you show up.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. I'd define "spying" as any data collection that users are not informed of. Go tool is an open-source development tool - people expect open-source development tools to serve the users, not the developers (to the detriment of the user). That's the whole point of the whole open-source (and free-software) movement. [A significant number of] users do not want their tools to send any data from their machines that they themselves haven't allowed it to. To create an open-source development tool that sends data by default is a deception tactic - it works because most people trust open-source tools, and because most people won't know the data is being sent by that particular tool. The deception part is what bugs me the most. I may or may not be against telemetry in general, but I am definitely against deception of the users. And providing a few lines in the release notes counts as "informing the users" as much as changing a few lines in the TOS counts as "informing the users" - in my opinion, doesn't.
    - acdha 4y ago
      > I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. One typically doesn’t associate that with extensive public comment so using that term seems like it’s contributing more heat than light.
      - bheadmaster 4y ago
        > Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? "Spying" is not an analogy, it's a verb that describes the act of collection information that you aren't authorized to collect. In case of opt-out telemetry without user consent, it's a perfectly fitting word. One could also argue that "telemetry" is under-descriptive, since it does not account for the fact that it's turned on by default. > Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. Deception is the act of giving people false information for the sake of achieving a goal, the ethics of the underlying motive is irrelevant.
        acdha 4y ago
        Again, the reason I think “spy” is an editorial choice to express an opinion is that in common English usage that work implies hostile intent. It's not just that some data is being recorded but that it's done with the understanding and desire to harm the subject. Contrast with “telemetry”, which is value-neutral and simply describes the mechanism of collecting data and transmitting it to be recorded somewhere else. I don't think it's appropriate to use “spying” because there's no evidence of hostility here and considerable evidence to the contrary in the form of the public discussion and the proposal starting with various mechanisms limiting what is collected, how frequently it's reported, and preventing covert manipulation of the telemetry system.
        bheadmaster 4y ago
yamtaddle 4y ago
Those are all obviously spying, if you don't ask first!

You seems to conflate telemetry with spying Uploading crash log to devs to help them fix bugs Or stats about project sizes So they are aware how their users use their soft and can optimize

bheadmaster 4y ago

What is the exact difference between spying and telemetry that user hasn't consented to?

acdha 4y ago
If we consider the dictionary definition spying has a sense of personal and private information being collected. For telemetry, one of the first questions would be whether the data being collected is the same — for example, something like the version of the C compiler you have installed doesn't seem like nearly as sensitive. The other part is the question of exactly what consent means in this context. If I sneak into your house, I'm spying. If I record what you do when visiting my house, that's arguably still spying. If I say I'm giving you a free meal but at the bottom of the menu there's a warning that I use statistics about which meals are the most popular unless you ask me not to, that doesn't feel like it's in the same category as the previous two even if there's a pretty strong argument that it's best to ask you the first time you show up.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. I'd define "spying" as any data collection that users are not informed of. Go tool is an open-source development tool - people expect open-source development tools to serve the users, not the developers (to the detriment of the user). That's the whole point of the whole open-source (and free-software) movement. [A significant number of] users do not want their tools to send any data from their machines that they themselves haven't allowed it to. To create an open-source development tool that sends data by default is a deception tactic - it works because most people trust open-source tools, and because most people won't know the data is being sent by that particular tool. The deception part is what bugs me the most. I may or may not be against telemetry in general, but I am definitely against deception of the users. And providing a few lines in the release notes counts as "informing the users" as much as changing a few lines in the TOS counts as "informing the users" - in my opinion, doesn't.
  - acdha 4y ago
    > I don't think such real-world analogies serve any useful purpose, they only make things more confusing. Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. One typically doesn’t associate that with extensive public comment so using that term seems like it’s contributing more heat than light.
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      > Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? "Spying" is not an analogy, it's a verb that describes the act of collection information that you aren't authorized to collect. In case of opt-out telemetry without user consent, it's a perfectly fitting word. One could also argue that "telemetry" is under-descriptive, since it does not account for the fact that it's turned on by default. > Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. Deception is the act of giving people false information for the sake of achieving a goal, the ethics of the underlying motive is irrelevant.
      - acdha 4y ago
        Again, the reason I think “spy” is an editorial choice to express an opinion is that in common English usage that work implies hostile intent. It's not just that some data is being recorded but that it's done with the understanding and desire to harm the subject. Contrast with “telemetry”, which is value-neutral and simply describes the mechanism of collecting data and transmitting it to be recorded somewhere else. I don't think it's appropriate to use “spying” because there's no evidence of hostility here and considerable evidence to the contrary in the form of the public discussion and the proposal starting with various mechanisms limiting what is collected, how frequently it's reported, and preventing covert manipulation of the telemetry system.
        bheadmaster 4y ago

yamtaddle 4y ago

Those are all obviously spying, if you don't ask first!