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A targeted crackdown on “junk fees” makes a lot of sense
- gnicholas 4y agoI hate fees as much as the next guy, if not more. But this doesn’t seem like it’s in the same ballpark: > We’ll make cable internet and cellphone companies stop charging you up to $200 or more when you decide to switch to another provider. If your cell provider gives you a subsidized phone and puts you on a contract that has an early termination fee, that seems fair. If cable companies are doing this sort of thing, then it would be more of an issue since they don’t provide expensive equipment that the customer keeps. But I mostly hear about cell providers doing this.
- Retric 4y agoA cellphone early termination fee tied to the discount provided on on a phone is one thing, but a 200$ fee on month 23 of a 24 month contract does not.
- dataflow 4y agoIs the latter still a thing? I feel like I haven't seen those recently, but I haven't dug deeply.
- pxx 4y agoThe problem is that there are two separate types of regulation here, as the article alludes to (it admits that the airline seat thing is just a random subsidy). Resort fees and concert ticketing fees have the problem that you can never figure out what the prices of things are until you get through checkout (or sometimes even later!). Requiring early disclosure of those so consumers can make informed decisions is an easy sell. Random market distortions, like "no more ETFs on telecommunications plans" and "you can't charge for seats on the airplane if a child is involved", need a little more analysis. But by bundling these two things together, the whole initiative feels deceptive. "Here's a clear good along with some murky stuff, but the whole thing is good because we at least proposed the clearly good stuff!"
- Cthulhu_ 4y agoIn a lot of cases it's to discourage people from switching providers. It exists in my country (NL) for e.g. energy companies - we have a fairly competitive market. People have to pay €125 if they want to break their contract (which is usually in 1, 2 or 3 year periods, sometimes 5). However, especially with the energy prices having gone up, the energy companies have just offered to pay this fine outright if someone wants to switch to them.
- actually_a_dog 4y agoYeah. For instance, let's talk about the $29 I paid to American Airlines recently for "priority boarding," before I found out the flight was less than 1/3 full. I got what was offered, but I got no actual value out of it. AA essentially scammed me out of $29, because I never would have taken the offer had I known there were so few people on the flight. Edit to add: they made me this offer at the airport kiosk, immediately before my flight boarded. They knew it wasn't anywhere near full.
- ceejayoz 4y agoThe fees described in the article aren't optional; resort fees, ticketing fees, etc. tend to be mandatory. They're fundamentally part of the price, but not part of the price shown. An optional fee for priority boarding is very different. (I don't understand the folks who want to rush onto the plane to sit in a less comfortable seat, but that's a different issue entirely.)
- pxx 4y agoPriority boarding offers a slight bit of insurance against the possibility of the plane running out of overhead compartment space. The post you're responding to is essentially a complaint that they purchased insurance (at a known negative expected value) and didn't see a payout. Which on its face is ridiculous.
- kayodelycaon 4y agoPriority boarding is useful if you want to avoid having your bag checked and being separated from it. (Pretty much guaranteed to happen if the flight is nearly full.) It doesn’t happen often but checked bags can get lost. Also, waiting 10~15 minutes to pick up your bag can be annoying after a long flight.
- BurningFrog 4y agoWhen they sold you the ticket, AA didn't know how full the plane was going to be.
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- crawl_soever 4y agoHow about making it compulsory to accept legal tender for events /races and other things? How many times do you sign up to run a race and are forced to purchase through vendors like "Event Dog" or other where paying cash is not even an option. And these companies always tack on up to 10$ "convenience fees" that are unavoidable. In places like Canada where currency is legal tender you can avoid these scummy vendors by paying the merchant cash directly
- pxx 4y agoI don't think you have an operating understanding of legal tender. No widely-applicable law in Canada or the US requires businesses to accept bank notes to settle a transaction. See e.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/6878824/legal-for-businesses-to-refuse-cash-canada/ https://globalnews.ca/news/6878824/legal-for-businesses-to-r... and https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm . Some municipalities and states have added laws requiring cash acceptance, but it's not as simple as "it's legal tender" or "you can do it in Canada."
- sowbug 4y agoI think the sentiment is understandable if the terminology isn't precise. Don't charge fees for non-optional things. Especially don't charge a fee to pay the posted price.
- akoster 4y agoJust an example of a large municipality doing this: In NYC food establishments must accept cash as of November 2020 https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/new-york-city-cash-law-debit-cards-app-payments-ritchie-torres/ https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/new-york-city-cash-law-...
- chucksmash 4y agoI missed that this happened, that's great news. When I saw a few places get away with no longer accepting cash "for the convenience of our customers and the security of our staff," I figured that it was only a matter of time until everywhere else that wasn't doing light tax fraud followed suit. Tangentially, I'm also pleasantly surprised how easy it still is to buy a physical MetroCard. My understanding a few years back was that contactless payment would be the default by now and if I wanted to buy a physical MetroCard, I'd no longer be able to do that at stations but I would instead need to go to "select retail partners" to do so.
- nicbou 4y agoIn Germany the price you see is the price you pay. It's set in law. This includes taxes and any other fees they might want to add. If someone tried to add random fees like AirBnB does in the US, you would not have to pay them. Wouldn't that solve most of the problem?
- dataflow 4y agoI'm not sure how that works in Germany, but these fees are "seen". It's not like you're not legally agreeing to them. The trouble is they're only seen when you're, say, at the last screen of checking out. How do they avoid that in Germany?
- sigwinch28 4y agolaw and enforcement
- ceejayoz 4y ago> How do they avoid that in Germany? By requiring any listed price to be inclusive of fees. Australia does the same. No "$100/night" in the search results if the checkout adds a $20/night resort fee.
- chmod775 4y ago> The trouble is they're only seen when you're, say, at the last screen of checking out. How do they avoid that in Germany? If they're adding a surcharge for something you would reasonably expect to be included in the offering which they advertised at a lower price, it would be false advertising. You'd at least run afoul of the act against unfair competition: German version / English version §5 Misleading commercial practices: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5.html / https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg.html#p0061 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg... §5a Misleading by omission: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/uwg_2004/__5a.html / https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg.html#p0073 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_uwg/englisch_uwg... Some quotes: > A commercial practice is regarded as misleading if it contains false statements or other information suited to deception regarding the following circumstances: [..] 2. the reason for the purchase, such as the existence of a specific price advantage, the price or the manner in which the price is calculated [..] > The following are also regarded as an omission of information: 1. the hiding of material information, 2. the provision of material information in an unclear, unintelligible or ambiguous manner, 3. the provision of material information in an untimely manner.
- ceejayoz 4y agoI'd be very happy to see this. Apparently if you change your currency on AirBnB to Australian dollars, you see the actual price, inclusive of fees, because that's legally required there. (As is showing the after-tax price on things like restaurant menus.)
- zxcvbn4038 4y agoMy understanding is that they are rolling this out to the US this year also - too many US hosts were starting to do the low base cost plus bazillion fees thing and it's causing frustration. Now if they can just do something about all the hosts that want me to take out the garbage, sweep/vacuum the floor, clean the dishes, wash the linens, tear down the beds - then then charge a cleaning fee on top of all that. I just spent half a day of my vacation cleaning your house, AND you want me to pay you a cleaning fee?
- Cthulhu_ 4y agoIt makes a compelling argument to just go to a hotel, which are regulated, where you're not expected to clean up yourself, and where there are no (or less) hidden fees. Price-wise they have become competitive with airbnb - mainly because of the issues mentioned of e.g. separate cleaning feeas.
- ketchupdebugger 4y agoI'd be happy if they got rid of cleaning fee and chore requirement from AirBnB.
- chadash 4y agoThe cleaning fee on AirBnB is actually one that has some logic to it. A property needs to be cleaned after each guest, regardless of whether you use it for one night or ten. The owner pays for it to be cleaned either way and it makes sense that this would get passed on to the customer. What needs to go is the "service fee" which is AirBnB's cut of the total. This is usually a fixed percentage and should just be counted as part of the price if I filter for places less than $X a night.
- ceejayoz 4y ago> The cleaning fee on AirBnB is actually one that has some logic to it. Yes, but a common phenomenon lately is you arrive and not only is there a significant cleaning fee, but there's a list of chores on the "house rules" you're required to do before leaving that should be part of that cleaning fee. People have occasionally been asked to mow the lawn.
- BizarroLand 4y agoYeah, I am not going to meticulously clean their place and also pay them to have it cleaned on top of that. I am not a messy person. I can tidy, no problem. I'm not paying you a $250 "cleaning" fee after 2 nights and doing your chores too.
- eppp 4y agoYes, the place has to be cleaned, but there isnt any reason at all it needs to exist as a separate fee. Just roll it into the price. It isn't negotiable, therefore it is the price.
- ketchupdebugger 4y agousually they tack on couple of hundred dollars on top of the price. The per night price is usually slightly cheaper than hotels but with the cleaning fees, the total usually comes out to higher than what a stay at a hotel would cost. AirBnB used to be a cheaper alternative to hotel but not anymore.
- chadash 4y agoI called up comcast/xfinity to get internet service. They asked me if I'd like to add on basic cable for $10/month. I don't watch much TV, but I figured for $10/month I'd be willing to do it for the occasional live event. So I agreed to it on top of the $40/month internet. I figured I'll be paying $55ish/month when you factor the taxes I'll be paying to Uncle Sam. After 20 minutes on the phone, we get to the final payment authorization. "Do you authorize me to charge your credit card $68/month?" I asked why so much higher than the $40 + $10 amount? Apparently, there was an $11 "content delivery fee" for the TV. As if buying the cable channels and having them "delivered" to my home are different freaking things. As if you can buy the rights to watch cable at the comcast store, but if you want it at home, you gotta pay an extra $11. These companies are going to whine and scream about these changes, but they really brought this on themselves.
- ceejayoz 4y agoSame for stuff like the "regulatory compliance fee" on cell phone plans. Folks, that's part of your price.
- ornornor 4y agoOr 911 access fees…
- NovemberWhiskey 4y agoMost of this junk fee stuff is about pricing transparency and the way it complicates consumer comparisons; the bottom line is going to stay the same. I have some sympathy with businesses that want to break out government surcharges into a separate line item; but as the article indicates most stuff isn't in that category.
- ceejayoz 4y ago"Regulatory compliance" isn't a government surcharge, though. It'd be like tacking on a "paying our employees" fee. It's part of their costs of doing business; factor it into the price. I don't mind if the bottom lines stay the same. Right now, I can't compare bottom lines, because the real bottom line is hidden. Is the $50/night hotel cheaper than the $100/night one? No one knows, unless they spend the time to get all the way to the final booking step on both (or more realistically, dozens of) options.
- zxcvbn4038 4y agoFollowing in the example of the Airlines I think it should be universally required to disclose all fees up front so that you can do a proper comparison - too frequently you don't receive those numbers until the very last step. Like rental cars that are $0.01/day plus $150 in fees, or GrubHub vendors that have service fees exceeding the costs of an entree. One of the things I like about Amazon is that they provide a total cost when comparing buying options from their marketplace.
- vuln 4y agoI have paid a _resort tax_ but never a _resort fee_ to my knowledge. All of the taxes were authorized by the city / county / state. Is there a difference between resort tax on a hotel room and a resort fee as this article states? Can the Federal government ban certain states / counties / cities taxes?
- ceejayoz 4y agoResort fees are becoming common, and they're very different from a tax. They're just a way of hiding the true price of the room. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resort_fee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resort_fee The Feds wouldn't really be banning the fee, they'd be banning hiding it in the last checkout step.
- Cthulhu_ 4y agoThey can regulate them, but it's not really about that they exist, it's that they are hidden and/or obfuscated until the last moment, or even until after the customer finalized the contract already. Prices on e.g. hotel websites should be listed with all fees and taxes included.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y agoResort fees are definitely a separate thing. Hotels say these are for things like wifi or bottled water in your room etc. that might have been separate charges in the past but are now being bundled into a single fee "for your convenience", which is fine, but if it's not optional then it's just part of your room rate now, right?
- baron816 4y agoWe just need an across the board price transparency law. You should know exactly what you’re going to pay before you agree to any services. It shouldn’t be that hard.
- jjoonathan 4y agoIt isn't that hard. Everyone else does it. But yeah, brace yourself for the incoming tidal wave of lobbyists and simps pretending that it is, lol.
- BizarroLand 4y agoWe should include sales taxes in that. "What you see is what you pay" would be nice.
- debacle 4y agoMost people have been paying $8/mo for 3-4 years for a $35 modem. It's a sweet deal, if you can get it.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y agoEh; if you can choose not to buy the modem, then go ahead and do that if you're willing to configure it yourself - not having to do that might be good value for some. Forcing you to buy the modem on an over-priced installment plan is obviously not OK.
- gnicholas 4y agoXfinity charges $15/mo, IIRC. But if you supply your own modem they’ll blame it whenever there’s a service problem. So using theirs has one benefit, which is they have no one else to blame.
- BizarroLand 4y agoI am on Xfinity and have been using my own modem for 7 years now. Internet went out randomly a few weeks ago. Their online assistant tried to ping my modem and failed, they sent a tech out and fixed the line and were on their way. It sucked being without internet for a couple of days, but it was also kind of nice.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoWhen I was a teenager, a mechanic tried to charge my dad for the use of "shop towels" for working on his car. What?
- Zak 4y agoThe article quotes Republican adviser George Callas arguing that this would be bad economics because it won't eliminate costs, just shift them to the primary price of the services in question. I disagree. Shifting the costs to the primary price is good economics because it enables consumers to comparison-shop based on price and leads to a more competitive market. That's what companies are trying to hack with hidden fees.