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> Asking nicely doesn't work in pratice LLVM, GCC, rust, zig, D, etc don't have telementry and they seem to be doing fine. What makes go special? They aren't t

> Asking nicely doesn't work in pratice LLVM, GCC, rust, zig, D, etc don't have telementry and they seem to be doing fine. What makes go special? They aren't trying to be more efficient than rust. It isn't more widely used than GCC. I would argue they don't need this telemetry at all.

arp242 4y ago
No one claimed it's essential to have telemetry or that a language literally can't do without it. After all, Go is doing fine without telemetry too. But that doesn't mean it's not useful, for Go but also gcc, or Zig, or D, or any other language. A long list of use cases is given here: https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-uses https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-uses
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  Useful doesn't mean it should be done. There are a ton of useful things for me I don't do because it's not right to do them. Apparently as soon as a company becomes big enough, the line between convenience and ethical becomes very blurry.
  - arp242 4y ago
    > Useful doesn't mean it should be done. I never said anything about what should be done. I'm just saying it is useful, as the previous commenter said it's not.
    - hn92726819 4y ago
      When did I say it isn't useful? I said they didn't need it. They also don't need to install a kernel module that records every keystroke and memory access, but it would certainly be useful data.
acdha 4y ago
Have you asked core developers of those languages how they feel about this? I'd bet that you'd have near unanimous agreement that this class of information would be useful for informing support decisions. Where I'd expect difference is precisely over the question of whether it's worth the cost & trust issues. That makes me wonder whether there might be some middle-ground here where some third-party like the Linux Foundation could run a telemetry service which is highly public in both its design and collected data, and whether that would be enough that many people would be comfortable with this kind of service without Google's business reputation entering into the equation.
- groestl 4y ago
  > useful for informing support decisions Useful does not equal ethical or legal. A lot of things would be useful to me.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    Please enumerate. Go on.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Hence the second paragraph in the comment you're replying to. There's no question that this could be implemented legally but the ethical considerations are legitimate and warrant extensive discussion for an open source community. I think that the Go proposal has been derailed by a lot of hot takes based on scenarios far in excess of what's actually described, but I also think it's quite likely that many languages' core developers would look at that and agree that they don't want that information badly enough to spend time trying to negotiate those hazards.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  What if your plumber installed a camera in your bathroom for informed support decisions? Sure would be useful for him to see where you put those "biodegradable" baby wipes after the deed.
  - 4y ago
typical182 4y ago
FWIW, there is a proposal to add telemetry to LLVM [0] and Rust used to have telemetry [1], both off by default. Some things in the node.js world have telemetry enabled by default, like Next.js [3]. Some people are posting here as if this is already decided -- AFAICT, that's not the case. It's not even a formal proposal yet, and the stated intent was to start a conversation around something concrete. (For context, this is standard for how the Go project approaches large topics, including for example I think there were something like ~8 very detailed generics design drafts from the core Go team over ~10 years). It sounds like the Go team is going to take some time to look into some of the alternative approaches suggested in the feedback collected so far. In any event, this is obviously a topic people are very passionate about, especially opt-in vs. opt-out, but I guess I would suggest not giving up hope quite yet. [0] https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-lldb-telemetry-metrics/64588/11 https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-lldb-telemetry-metrics/6458... [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rustup/issues/341 https://github.com/rust-lang/rustup/issues/341 [2] https://nextjs.org/telemetry https://nextjs.org/telemetry
Thaxll 4y ago
C# ( net core ) has telemetry, as well as Java so it's not that it does not exists in other very popular languages. https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/terms-java-usage-metrics.html https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/terms-java-u... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetr... Also the idea of GCC is more used than Go and GCC does not have telemetry so GO doesn't need it is completly unrelated. Most dev working on core tools want telemetry to improve those tools, it's invaluable data to make the right decisions.
- jsiepkes 4y ago
  > C# ( net core ) has telemetry, as well as Java Which Java distribution? Maybe the Oracle JDK/JRE? I highly doubt the Oracle JDK/JRE has serious usage numbers because of it's (quite commercial) license.
- squaresmile 4y ago
  > dotnet, vscode (Microsoft), golang (Google), Oracle JDK/JRE, Nextjs (Vercel), ... I wonder if there's some trend where corporate backed, large "open source/source available" projects being more open to telemetry compared to more "open community" projects. For non-corporate projects, the general thought process might be it's fine to leave efficiency gains and improvements on the table if it means violating some foundational principles. While in a business setting, those efficiency gains could be very tempting since it can translate to more money, market share or promotions and that way of thinking gets applied to the open source projects as well.
  - acdha 4y ago
    I think your analysis is correct, and would also add that corporate projects probably have both the culture of monitoring (they use it for everything else) and the expectation that they have to deadlines so they prioritize the idea of being able to ship something with the confidence that it either won't break anyone or they'll be able to know & react quickly if it does. Open source didn't used to have that same focus since it was rarely someone's job and there was more understanding that time was in short supply (“if it breaks, let me know or send a patch”).
blibble 4y ago
> What makes go special? it's owned by an ad company

arp242 4y ago

No one claimed it's essential to have telemetry or that a language literally can't do without it. After all, Go is doing fine without telemetry too. But that doesn't mean it's not useful, for Go but also gcc, or Zig, or D, or any other language. A long list of use cases is given here: https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-uses https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-uses

BiteCode_dev 4y ago
Useful doesn't mean it should be done. There are a ton of useful things for me I don't do because it's not right to do them. Apparently as soon as a company becomes big enough, the line between convenience and ethical becomes very blurry.
- arp242 4y ago
  > Useful doesn't mean it should be done. I never said anything about what should be done. I'm just saying it is useful, as the previous commenter said it's not.
  - hn92726819 4y ago
    When did I say it isn't useful? I said they didn't need it. They also don't need to install a kernel module that records every keystroke and memory access, but it would certainly be useful data.

acdha 4y ago

Have you asked core developers of those languages how they feel about this? I'd bet that you'd have near unanimous agreement that this class of information would be useful for informing support decisions. Where I'd expect difference is precisely over the question of whether it's worth the cost & trust issues. That makes me wonder whether there might be some middle-ground here where some third-party like the Linux Foundation could run a telemetry service which is highly public in both its design and collected data, and whether that would be enough that many people would be comfortable with this kind of service without Google's business reputation entering into the equation.

groestl 4y ago
> useful for informing support decisions Useful does not equal ethical or legal. A lot of things would be useful to me.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  Please enumerate. Go on.
- acdha 4y ago
  Hence the second paragraph in the comment you're replying to. There's no question that this could be implemented legally but the ethical considerations are legitimate and warrant extensive discussion for an open source community. I think that the Go proposal has been derailed by a lot of hot takes based on scenarios far in excess of what's actually described, but I also think it's quite likely that many languages' core developers would look at that and agree that they don't want that information badly enough to spend time trying to negotiate those hazards.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
What if your plumber installed a camera in your bathroom for informed support decisions? Sure would be useful for him to see where you put those "biodegradable" baby wipes after the deed.
- 4y ago

typical182 4y ago

FWIW, there is a proposal to add telemetry to LLVM [0] and Rust used to have telemetry [1], both off by default. Some things in the node.js world have telemetry enabled by default, like Next.js [3]. Some people are posting here as if this is already decided -- AFAICT, that's not the case. It's not even a formal proposal yet, and the stated intent was to start a conversation around something concrete. (For context, this is standard for how the Go project approaches large topics, including for example I think there were something like ~8 very detailed generics design drafts from the core Go team over ~10 years). It sounds like the Go team is going to take some time to look into some of the alternative approaches suggested in the feedback collected so far. In any event, this is obviously a topic people are very passionate about, especially opt-in vs. opt-out, but I guess I would suggest not giving up hope quite yet. [0] https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-lldb-telemetry-metrics/64588/11 https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-lldb-telemetry-metrics/6458... [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rustup/issues/341 https://github.com/rust-lang/rustup/issues/341 [2] https://nextjs.org/telemetry https://nextjs.org/telemetry

Thaxll 4y ago

C# ( net core ) has telemetry, as well as Java so it's not that it does not exists in other very popular languages. https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/terms-java-usage-metrics.html https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/terms-java-u... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetr... Also the idea of GCC is more used than Go and GCC does not have telemetry so GO doesn't need it is completly unrelated. Most dev working on core tools want telemetry to improve those tools, it's invaluable data to make the right decisions.

jsiepkes 4y ago
> C# ( net core ) has telemetry, as well as Java Which Java distribution? Maybe the Oracle JDK/JRE? I highly doubt the Oracle JDK/JRE has serious usage numbers because of it's (quite commercial) license.
squaresmile 4y ago
> dotnet, vscode (Microsoft), golang (Google), Oracle JDK/JRE, Nextjs (Vercel), ... I wonder if there's some trend where corporate backed, large "open source/source available" projects being more open to telemetry compared to more "open community" projects. For non-corporate projects, the general thought process might be it's fine to leave efficiency gains and improvements on the table if it means violating some foundational principles. While in a business setting, those efficiency gains could be very tempting since it can translate to more money, market share or promotions and that way of thinking gets applied to the open source projects as well.
- acdha 4y ago
  I think your analysis is correct, and would also add that corporate projects probably have both the culture of monitoring (they use it for everything else) and the expectation that they have to deadlines so they prioritize the idea of being able to ship something with the confidence that it either won't break anyone or they'll be able to know & react quickly if it does. Open source didn't used to have that same focus since it was rarely someone's job and there was more understanding that time was in short supply (“if it breaks, let me know or send a patch”).

blibble 4y ago

> What makes go special? it's owned by an ad company