5 ms·

This is an excellent example.. and my life ;). There are all sorts of things that I don't serve Ashkenazim (Europeans) that are kosher for us North Africans. In

by cik 4y ago

This is an excellent example.. and my life ;). There are all sorts of things that I don't serve Ashkenazim (Europeans) that are kosher for us North Africans. In particular, I'm fond of Arak (and Bouja). I have Arak from Turkey (Raki), it's made with crushed grape seeds; I have Arak from Lebanon which includes non-wine based grape alcohol. These are not Kosher for Ashkenazi, but are kosher for (most) North African and Middle Eastern Jews. From a Jewish Law (halachic) point of view, that person isn't allowed to consume these things. But moreover (and logically), I actually can't serve it to them. So, there are multiple layers to these things.

skissane 4y ago
It sounds like while the difference between מסורת and מנהג is important in theory, it is less so in practice - whether you have a מסורת that you don’t eat it or just a מנהג that you don’t eat it, either way you don’t eat it. I was kind of guessing that maybe a מנהג might allow greater exceptions than a מסורת, but now I’m guessing I guessed wrong. But what happens when a couple get married from different communities which have different מסורת or מנהג - can one spouse adopt those of the other? Must they each continue to follow their respective inheritances? And what is inherited by their children? Sorry, I hope you don’t mind me asking all these questions-it is just a topic which fires my curiosity.
- cik 4y ago
  This is awesome, I love this. Also advance sorry for the wall of text. Feel free to keep on ;) Actually, I have another super relevant example. The Talmud derives that one should always hold the kiddush cup (glass of wine) when making its blessing. However, the מנהג in my (and many a) family is to leave the glass on the table, and stare into it at the time of the blessing - due to a Kabbalistic matter. To be clear, this מנהג clearly goes against accepted הלכה (Jewish Law). It's also clearly, 100% okay. One of the larger Rabbi's in recent memory (חכם עובדיה יוסף) when asked said that it's fine. Ultimately this probably depends on the item to be honest, but there are many instances of nuanced הלכה (like the wine blessing, blessing on the bread, other things) having מנהג trump מסורת. This is due to the fact that while the Talmud is the Oral Law, it's not the Torah. The Talmud itself, repeatedly explains how nothing can trump the Torah. However, once something is Rabbanut (from the Rabbis) the debate opens, hence the Talmud itself - which is a mixture of the Oral Law (משנה) given at Sinai, and the discussion of the Oral Law (גמרא) by generations post, when this was formally written down by Rav Yeudah Hanasi. This becomes super interesting in the case of Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) who were disconnected from "mass Judaism" at the time of the Talmud, and literally did not practice Judaism with these Talmudic inclusions. To help codify their historic traditions, and how they can be understood within the framework of "Judaic norms" within modern Israel - Harav Sharon Shalom, an Ethiopian Rabbi wrote his book, while in discussion with many Kessim (Ethiopian Jewish religious leaders, effectively Rabbis). As for your question about couples, this is literally my marriage. In reality, it depends on the couple. From the pure perspective of הלכה, these religious items follow the male. In practice, in most communities it follows who cares more, and even that can depend. My wife (Ashkenaz) has wildly different traditions, foods, music.. heck tonnes of things than I (a Sephardic Jew) do. We tend (overwhelmingly) to the Sephardic side of traditions, she prays as we do now, etc. At the same time, on Pesah we sing many of the songs she grew up with, we maintain a stricter stance on certain kosher items because it makes her more comfortable - and I'm happy to do it for her. But our children "follow their father" as per the Talmud. This means that my kids follow Sephardic מנהגים, prayers, etc. Then again, we're also in Israel which unlike North America tends to be more Sephardic than Ashkenaz (practice not numbers). Apologies if I rambled.

by cik 4y ago

skissane 4y ago

It sounds like while the difference between מסורת and מנהג is important in theory, it is less so in practice - whether you have a מסורת that you don’t eat it or just a מנהג that you don’t eat it, either way you don’t eat it. I was kind of guessing that maybe a מנהג might allow greater exceptions than a מסורת, but now I’m guessing I guessed wrong. But what happens when a couple get married from different communities which have different מסורת or מנהג - can one spouse adopt those of the other? Must they each continue to follow their respective inheritances? And what is inherited by their children? Sorry, I hope you don’t mind me asking all these questions-it is just a topic which fires my curiosity.

cik 4y ago
This is awesome, I love this. Also advance sorry for the wall of text. Feel free to keep on ;) Actually, I have another super relevant example. The Talmud derives that one should always hold the kiddush cup (glass of wine) when making its blessing. However, the מנהג in my (and many a) family is to leave the glass on the table, and stare into it at the time of the blessing - due to a Kabbalistic matter. To be clear, this מנהג clearly goes against accepted הלכה (Jewish Law). It's also clearly, 100% okay. One of the larger Rabbi's in recent memory (חכם עובדיה יוסף) when asked said that it's fine. Ultimately this probably depends on the item to be honest, but there are many instances of nuanced הלכה (like the wine blessing, blessing on the bread, other things) having מנהג trump מסורת. This is due to the fact that while the Talmud is the Oral Law, it's not the Torah. The Talmud itself, repeatedly explains how nothing can trump the Torah. However, once something is Rabbanut (from the Rabbis) the debate opens, hence the Talmud itself - which is a mixture of the Oral Law (משנה) given at Sinai, and the discussion of the Oral Law (גמרא) by generations post, when this was formally written down by Rav Yeudah Hanasi. This becomes super interesting in the case of Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) who were disconnected from "mass Judaism" at the time of the Talmud, and literally did not practice Judaism with these Talmudic inclusions. To help codify their historic traditions, and how they can be understood within the framework of "Judaic norms" within modern Israel - Harav Sharon Shalom, an Ethiopian Rabbi wrote his book, while in discussion with many Kessim (Ethiopian Jewish religious leaders, effectively Rabbis). As for your question about couples, this is literally my marriage. In reality, it depends on the couple. From the pure perspective of הלכה, these religious items follow the male. In practice, in most communities it follows who cares more, and even that can depend. My wife (Ashkenaz) has wildly different traditions, foods, music.. heck tonnes of things than I (a Sephardic Jew) do. We tend (overwhelmingly) to the Sephardic side of traditions, she prays as we do now, etc. At the same time, on Pesah we sing many of the songs she grew up with, we maintain a stricter stance on certain kosher items because it makes her more comfortable - and I'm happy to do it for her. But our children "follow their father" as per the Talmud. This means that my kids follow Sephardic מנהגים, prayers, etc. Then again, we're also in Israel which unlike North America tends to be more Sephardic than Ashkenaz (practice not numbers). Apologies if I rambled.