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> CLEAN, newly purchased laptop There is no such thing as a clean Windows installation when you buy a laptop. They are always filled with crapware. Always rein

> CLEAN, newly purchased laptop There is no such thing as a clean Windows installation when you buy a laptop. They are always filled with crapware. Always reinstall Windows youself if you buy hardware with preinstalled Windows.

worksonmine 4y ago
Clean means different things to different people, and I think "clean from the store" is a valid definition. Why is expecting it to also be clean from spyware considered a pipe dream? While a computer literate user might do what you recommend my grandmother will not, and she is absolutely not going to use Steam. Putting the blame on the users doesn't make sense, they should be able to trust the companies they pay to have their interests in mind. I don't even boot into Windows before replacing it with Debian, but I can't convince my friends to do the same.
- Volundr 4y ago
  I don't think observing there is no clean laptop from the store is blaming users. Instead it's blaming the manufacturer. In OP it's unlikely that Microsoft is actually sending data to valve, and far more likely that the manufacturer has preinstalled steam or something.
- yucky 4y ago
  > Why is expecting it to also be clean from spyware considered a pipe dream? Experience?
  - worksonmine 4y ago
    Even in the case of my grandmother using a big chunk of her small pension to pay just to get spied on? Really? She doesn't even know she has a choice in the matter, or what implications that choice has. My opinion is that she and others like her shouldn't have to be educated. A lot of people in tech should step out of their bubble for a second and consider the real world. It's not technically impossible to have a better ecosystem, it's the industry creating the problems.
    - yucky 4y ago
      I agree, but the sad reality is that the reason the tech industry is as heavy handed on spying as it is, is because the people who work in tech want it that way. Despite their protestations, there is a lot of god complex in the industry so don't expect the tech industry to take a moral or principled stand. It will never happen.

worksonmine 4y ago

Clean means different things to different people, and I think "clean from the store" is a valid definition. Why is expecting it to also be clean from spyware considered a pipe dream? While a computer literate user might do what you recommend my grandmother will not, and she is absolutely not going to use Steam. Putting the blame on the users doesn't make sense, they should be able to trust the companies they pay to have their interests in mind. I don't even boot into Windows before replacing it with Debian, but I can't convince my friends to do the same.

Volundr 4y ago
I don't think observing there is no clean laptop from the store is blaming users. Instead it's blaming the manufacturer. In OP it's unlikely that Microsoft is actually sending data to valve, and far more likely that the manufacturer has preinstalled steam or something.
yucky 4y ago
> Why is expecting it to also be clean from spyware considered a pipe dream? Experience?
- worksonmine 4y ago
  Even in the case of my grandmother using a big chunk of her small pension to pay just to get spied on? Really? She doesn't even know she has a choice in the matter, or what implications that choice has. My opinion is that she and others like her shouldn't have to be educated. A lot of people in tech should step out of their bubble for a second and consider the real world. It's not technically impossible to have a better ecosystem, it's the industry creating the problems.
  - yucky 4y ago
    I agree, but the sad reality is that the reason the tech industry is as heavy handed on spying as it is, is because the people who work in tech want it that way. Despite their protestations, there is a lot of god complex in the industry so don't expect the tech industry to take a moral or principled stand. It will never happen.