4 ms·

Since its inception, computers were based on the model of a machine traversed by data that are processed like sausages in a mincer, as data was fed directly on

Since its inception, computers were based on the model of a machine traversed by data that are processed like sausages in a mincer, as data was fed directly on hardware which had code assembled as physical wires. However, the software part of the machines is made of the same material as the data, so they are much closer to what current programming languages seem to imply. It is natural that they tend to converge, especially in Lisp-like languages, into a type of program where the structure has code and data intermingled, which organically co-evolve in the directions in which problem solving takes it. Instead of a machine with a processing pipeline, a closer metaphor might be the phloem of plants, the living cells that transport food, and which form part of the plant's structure and grow along with it. (BTW I've coined a name for that kind of self-rendered cells, processed in place as collections of data sharing the same structure; I call them 'wits' - as in, the minimum unit of meaning; in parallel to bits as the minimum unit of information. And if you look closely, you'll begin to see that a lot of modern programming systems have them everywhere. So you may want to use this term 'a wit' to describe the concept explained in the article.)

DougMerritt 4y ago
Possibly related: "Seme, the smallest unit of meaning recognized in semantics". [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(semantics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(semantics)
- TuringTest 4y ago
  Thanks, I'll take a look. A wit would be the smallest unit of meaning in computing, then. I.e. the smallest part that needs processing beyond that of a primitive.
  - DougMerritt 4y ago
    I forgot to mention that I like your idea. And yeah, semantics and computing are related in a complex way, but certainly are not the same thing. I was distracted, trying to think of where I'd seen something like that in science fiction, and now I think (but can't check right now) that Robert Heinlein's novelette "Gulf" had something about the smallest unit of thought; the "psychon" or some such. There may also have been something in Keith Laumer's "The Great Time Machine Hoax", but I'm less sure about that.
    - TuringTest 4y ago
      I should point out that I'm not entirely serious about the concept of wit really being any measurable amount of meaning, I just wanted a catchy name that sounds cool :-) The true minimum meaningful computation is probably the lambda function, anyway.
      - DougMerritt 4y ago
        Certainly lambda is Turing equivalent, so sure. Seems like you could say the same for other things that are Turing equivalent, OTOH. Lukasiewicz logic [1] ; MOV [2] ; Semi-Thue string rewriting [3], and so on. But since such things usually suffer from the Turing Tarpit [4], perhaps there's one that has some kind of minimax to be ideally terse and require ideally-few steps for its Turing equivalency, similar to the way that radix 3 (closest to e) has been claimed to have been proven to be the ideally efficient representation system. [5] (I say "claimed" simply because I recently saw a claim that there's a loophole in the usual reasoning.) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ukasiewicz_logic#Real-valued_semantics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ukasiewicz_logic#Real-val... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-instruction_set_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-instruction_set_computer [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Thue_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Thue_system [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_economy
pjc50 4y ago
> self-rendered cells, processed in place as collections of data sharing the same structure Isn't this .. the spreadsheet? I was entertained watching this drift towards a set of cells in a grid some of which contain formulae and some of which contain data, used for accounting purposes, and wondering when the lightbulb was going to come on. (Funnily enough I've written my own transaction-annotating system lately. It's in python and stores the data in CSV, having got it from the Nordigen bank interface. EEA programmers may find Nordigen extremely useful: https://nordigen.com/en/coverage/ https://nordigen.com/en/coverage/)
- TuringTest 4y ago
  > Isn't this .. the spreadsheet? You nailed it, it's a spreadsheet - but one that doesn't constraint all data to live on the same application window, but could access and transform it throughout the whole system - just like copy/paste can transfer data from one program to another, where it can be transformed with a different toolset. Copy/paste is the most fundamental tool in the toolbox of the end user, since it's the only universal* way to transfer data between apps without accessing an API programmatically, so I think it's undeservedly neglected as a tool to build real life practical workflows. Incidentally, spreadsheets are one of the most versatile and successful End-User Development tools, allowing users to build information systems tailored to their business purposes. A system combining those design capabilities with the flexibility of building system-wide workflows could transcend the current model of siloed apps. * Intents on mobile devices are similar, but they are not universal - many times the app to which you want to transfer data is not recognized as a valid target for the shared data.
  - the_other 4y ago
    The Unix pipe seems like scriptable copy & paste.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      It's not, because you can't easily spawn transient pipes between running processes. The OS probably allows this, but I've never seen it exposed in the UI layer. Pipes are primarily used to build ad-hoc pipelines that run in batch mode. Copy&paste is a tool for moving specific bits of data on demand between two running programs, or within the same program. Copy&paste interaction model is "please take this and put it there", and the ability to select the this and the there is just as important as transferring the data itself.
gatane 4y ago
If I had a penny everytime a system's book/teacher said "systems are like living cells, they have interaction to themselves and the medium"...
- TuringTest 4y ago
  Because it's a valid metaphor :-) Computation started at the Jacquard loom, so engineers have a tradition of seeing it as a machine crunching patterns. But computers science, just like math, is a language so its deeply grounded in semantics. And semantics grow and evolve from the actions of each individual speaker, without a central processing unit controlling the process, so "organic" is a good way to describe it.
alexisread 4y ago
...You've been listening to Alan Kay? STEPS: https://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2012001_steps.pdf https://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2012001_steps.pdf VPRI implemented this dataflow GUI concept along with many other concepts in a minimal OS. Maru underpins the GUI stuff, and is highly flexible in itself.
- TuringTest 4y ago
  > ...You've been listening to Alan Kay? Actually yes :-) I agree that the original vision of computing pioneers about "augmenting the human intellect" has yet to become reality, and the industry has been entrenched in a local minimum derived from the very early engineering practices. But all that is finally changing really fast.

DougMerritt 4y ago

Possibly related: "Seme, the smallest unit of meaning recognized in semantics". [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(semantics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(semantics)

TuringTest 4y ago
Thanks, I'll take a look. A wit would be the smallest unit of meaning in computing, then. I.e. the smallest part that needs processing beyond that of a primitive.
- DougMerritt 4y ago
  I forgot to mention that I like your idea. And yeah, semantics and computing are related in a complex way, but certainly are not the same thing. I was distracted, trying to think of where I'd seen something like that in science fiction, and now I think (but can't check right now) that Robert Heinlein's novelette "Gulf" had something about the smallest unit of thought; the "psychon" or some such. There may also have been something in Keith Laumer's "The Great Time Machine Hoax", but I'm less sure about that.
  - TuringTest 4y ago
    I should point out that I'm not entirely serious about the concept of wit really being any measurable amount of meaning, I just wanted a catchy name that sounds cool :-) The true minimum meaningful computation is probably the lambda function, anyway.
    - DougMerritt 4y ago
      Certainly lambda is Turing equivalent, so sure. Seems like you could say the same for other things that are Turing equivalent, OTOH. Lukasiewicz logic [1] ; MOV [2] ; Semi-Thue string rewriting [3], and so on. But since such things usually suffer from the Turing Tarpit [4], perhaps there's one that has some kind of minimax to be ideally terse and require ideally-few steps for its Turing equivalency, similar to the way that radix 3 (closest to e) has been claimed to have been proven to be the ideally efficient representation system. [5] (I say "claimed" simply because I recently saw a claim that there's a loophole in the usual reasoning.) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ukasiewicz_logic#Real-valued_semantics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ukasiewicz_logic#Real-val... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-instruction_set_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-instruction_set_computer [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Thue_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Thue_system [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_economy

pjc50 4y ago

> self-rendered cells, processed in place as collections of data sharing the same structure Isn't this .. the spreadsheet? I was entertained watching this drift towards a set of cells in a grid some of which contain formulae and some of which contain data, used for accounting purposes, and wondering when the lightbulb was going to come on. (Funnily enough I've written my own transaction-annotating system lately. It's in python and stores the data in CSV, having got it from the Nordigen bank interface. EEA programmers may find Nordigen extremely useful: https://nordigen.com/en/coverage/ https://nordigen.com/en/coverage/)

TuringTest 4y ago
> Isn't this .. the spreadsheet? You nailed it, it's a spreadsheet - but one that doesn't constraint all data to live on the same application window, but could access and transform it throughout the whole system - just like copy/paste can transfer data from one program to another, where it can be transformed with a different toolset. Copy/paste is the most fundamental tool in the toolbox of the end user, since it's the only universal* way to transfer data between apps without accessing an API programmatically, so I think it's undeservedly neglected as a tool to build real life practical workflows. Incidentally, spreadsheets are one of the most versatile and successful End-User Development tools, allowing users to build information systems tailored to their business purposes. A system combining those design capabilities with the flexibility of building system-wide workflows could transcend the current model of siloed apps. * Intents on mobile devices are similar, but they are not universal - many times the app to which you want to transfer data is not recognized as a valid target for the shared data.
- the_other 4y ago
  The Unix pipe seems like scriptable copy & paste.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    It's not, because you can't easily spawn transient pipes between running processes. The OS probably allows this, but I've never seen it exposed in the UI layer. Pipes are primarily used to build ad-hoc pipelines that run in batch mode. Copy&paste is a tool for moving specific bits of data on demand between two running programs, or within the same program. Copy&paste interaction model is "please take this and put it there", and the ability to select the this and the there is just as important as transferring the data itself.

gatane 4y ago

If I had a penny everytime a system's book/teacher said "systems are like living cells, they have interaction to themselves and the medium"...

TuringTest 4y ago
Because it's a valid metaphor :-) Computation started at the Jacquard loom, so engineers have a tradition of seeing it as a machine crunching patterns. But computers science, just like math, is a language so its deeply grounded in semantics. And semantics grow and evolve from the actions of each individual speaker, without a central processing unit controlling the process, so "organic" is a good way to describe it.

alexisread 4y ago

...You've been listening to Alan Kay? STEPS: https://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2012001_steps.pdf https://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2012001_steps.pdf VPRI implemented this dataflow GUI concept along with many other concepts in a minimal OS. Maru underpins the GUI stuff, and is highly flexible in itself.

TuringTest 4y ago
> ...You've been listening to Alan Kay? Actually yes :-) I agree that the original vision of computing pioneers about "augmenting the human intellect" has yet to become reality, and the industry has been entrenched in a local minimum derived from the very early engineering practices. But all that is finally changing really fast.