4 ms·

The kosher meat industry in NYC at the time was quite the racket. Beatings, non-kosher meat sales, and other unsavory activities were commonplace up to and incl

by jo6gwb 4y ago

The kosher meat industry in NYC at the time was quite the racket. Beatings, non-kosher meat sales, and other unsavory activities were commonplace up to and including murder.

ggm 4y ago
This was true of almost all small to medium enterprise at some point. It isn't because it was kosher, it was because people at the time did stupid things. The meat-packing sector kosher or not was a hotbead of bad practices. The garment trade in NY was so bad, it's why unions took off in the USA. All the recent fires in garment factories in the Indian sub continent are a re-capitulation of what caused militancy in the garment industry. Thuggery is not uncommon in migrant communities. Strong migrants self-predate on marginalised people in their language and religion group. The Irish had this problem in spades, for years ("collecting" for Irish independance) (writing because calling out the Kosher butchers in particular misses a point, and can be read as implying they were worse than other sectors because they were Kosher)
Animats 4y ago
It's still a racket. For decades, New York State had state-run kosher food inspection. But in 2000, there was a lawsuit by one group of kosher butchers against another group of kosher butchers over which one got to define what was kosher. This went to Federal court, and the ruling was that the US courts could not decide the issue, because to do so either way would literally be an establishment of religion.[1] Now the state just has a labeling requirement and keeps a database of who says their label indicates kosher. Israel has a whole "my label is more kosher than your label" thing going, mostly in Jerusalem.[2] This pushed the price of kosher meat way up. There was a reform plan to standardize kosher regulation, and it got to within two weeks of going live. But as part of the coalition agreement Netanyahu negotiated to take power, it's been put off for six months and is probably dead until Israel gets a new prime minister.[3] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/04/nyregion/judge-voids-law-certifying-kosher-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/04/nyregion/judge-voids-law-... [2] https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-israelis-want-kosher-food-at-affordable-prices/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-israelis-want-kosher-fo... [3] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/shas-minister-signs-order-canceling-kashrut-reform-law-passed-by-knesset/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/shas-minister-s...
- cik 4y ago
  > Israel has a whole "my label is more kosher than your label" thing going, mostly in Jerusalem. This is at best an over-simplification. Many of us use a specific certification due to legitimate differences in tradition (מסורת) as opposed to "blue stampy is better than red stampy". I find it increasingly frustrating that frequently, we're seen as a monoculture, when we're not. I say this living in Israel, and not Jerusalem, not that it matters.
  - skissane 4y ago
    Going on a bit of a tangent - in the context of what you are saying, does מסורת (masoret, “tradition”) mean the same thing as מנהג (minhag, “custom”) - or would the latter be the wrong word to use here?
    - cik 4y ago
      No, they're different - apologies if I'm not clear, or making assumptions in the following! Amongst most Sepharadim we have the מסורת that Swordfish is kosher - there is a discussion about the relative Kashruth (Kosherness) in the Shulchan Aruch. But only amongst (some) Moroccans, and Yemenites, is there an actual מנהג of eating Swordfish. Syrians, Libyans, Egyptians, etc don't. There are other examples, but I always like this one.
      - skissane 4y ago
        Thanks, I think I understand what you are saying. Some things you believe are acceptable in theory but you wouldn’t actually do them in practice, other things you actually do in practice. About your example, what happens if a Yemenite Jew invites a Syrian Jew to dinner, and serves swordfish? Is the Syrian allowed to eat it?
        cik 4y ago
        This is an excellent example.. and my life ;). There are all sorts of things that I don't serve Ashkenazim (Europeans) that are kosher for us North Africans. In particular, I'm fond of Arak (and Bouja). I have Arak from Turkey (Raki), it's made with crushed grape seeds; I have Arak from Lebanon which includes non-wine based grape alcohol. These are not Kosher for Ashkenazi, but are kosher for (most) North African and Middle Eastern Jews. From a Jewish Law (halachic) point of view, that person isn't allowed to consume these things. But moreover (and logically), I actually can't serve it to them. So, there are multiple layers to these things.

by jo6gwb 4y ago

The kosher meat industry in NYC at the time was quite the racket. Beatings, non-kosher meat sales, and other unsavory activities were commonplace up to and including murder.

ggm 4y ago

This was true of almost all small to medium enterprise at some point. It isn't because it was kosher, it was because people at the time did stupid things. The meat-packing sector kosher or not was a hotbead of bad practices. The garment trade in NY was so bad, it's why unions took off in the USA. All the recent fires in garment factories in the Indian sub continent are a re-capitulation of what caused militancy in the garment industry. Thuggery is not uncommon in migrant communities. Strong migrants self-predate on marginalised people in their language and religion group. The Irish had this problem in spades, for years ("collecting" for Irish independance) (writing because calling out the Kosher butchers in particular misses a point, and can be read as implying they were worse than other sectors because they were Kosher)

Animats 4y ago

It's still a racket. For decades, New York State had state-run kosher food inspection. But in 2000, there was a lawsuit by one group of kosher butchers against another group of kosher butchers over which one got to define what was kosher. This went to Federal court, and the ruling was that the US courts could not decide the issue, because to do so either way would literally be an establishment of religion.[1] Now the state just has a labeling requirement and keeps a database of who says their label indicates kosher. Israel has a whole "my label is more kosher than your label" thing going, mostly in Jerusalem.[2] This pushed the price of kosher meat way up. There was a reform plan to standardize kosher regulation, and it got to within two weeks of going live. But as part of the coalition agreement Netanyahu negotiated to take power, it's been put off for six months and is probably dead until Israel gets a new prime minister.[3] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/04/nyregion/judge-voids-law-certifying-kosher-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/04/nyregion/judge-voids-law-... [2] https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-israelis-want-kosher-food-at-affordable-prices/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-israelis-want-kosher-fo... [3] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/shas-minister-signs-order-canceling-kashrut-reform-law-passed-by-knesset/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/shas-minister-s...

cik 4y ago
> Israel has a whole "my label is more kosher than your label" thing going, mostly in Jerusalem. This is at best an over-simplification. Many of us use a specific certification due to legitimate differences in tradition (מסורת) as opposed to "blue stampy is better than red stampy". I find it increasingly frustrating that frequently, we're seen as a monoculture, when we're not. I say this living in Israel, and not Jerusalem, not that it matters.
- skissane 4y ago
  Going on a bit of a tangent - in the context of what you are saying, does מסורת (masoret, “tradition”) mean the same thing as מנהג (minhag, “custom”) - or would the latter be the wrong word to use here?
  - cik 4y ago
    No, they're different - apologies if I'm not clear, or making assumptions in the following! Amongst most Sepharadim we have the מסורת that Swordfish is kosher - there is a discussion about the relative Kashruth (Kosherness) in the Shulchan Aruch. But only amongst (some) Moroccans, and Yemenites, is there an actual מנהג of eating Swordfish. Syrians, Libyans, Egyptians, etc don't. There are other examples, but I always like this one.
    - skissane 4y ago
      Thanks, I think I understand what you are saying. Some things you believe are acceptable in theory but you wouldn’t actually do them in practice, other things you actually do in practice. About your example, what happens if a Yemenite Jew invites a Syrian Jew to dinner, and serves swordfish? Is the Syrian allowed to eat it?
      - cik 4y ago
        This is an excellent example.. and my life ;). There are all sorts of things that I don't serve Ashkenazim (Europeans) that are kosher for us North Africans. In particular, I'm fond of Arak (and Bouja). I have Arak from Turkey (Raki), it's made with crushed grape seeds; I have Arak from Lebanon which includes non-wine based grape alcohol. These are not Kosher for Ashkenazi, but are kosher for (most) North African and Middle Eastern Jews. From a Jewish Law (halachic) point of view, that person isn't allowed to consume these things. But moreover (and logically), I actually can't serve it to them. So, there are multiple layers to these things.