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Fun fact: I remember when I was at Google in 2017. Ryan Dahl was there as well as a junior engineer (L4). L4 typically are engineers who graduated for 1-2 yea

Fun fact: I remember when I was at Google in 2017. Ryan Dahl was there as well as a junior engineer (L4). L4 typically are engineers who graduated for 1-2 years. Meanwhile Ryan has built a programming engine that has been used worldwide and widely popular on the same scale of Ruby, Java, Python... But he was slotted as an L4.

steveklabnik 4y ago
I interviewed at Google pre-pandemic, and they wanted me to start at an L4 as well.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  That's nuts, what was their reasoning?
  - steveklabnik 4y ago
    I don’t want to particularly get into all of it at this moment, as there were a lot of weird moving parts. In the end Cloudflare gave me a very straightforward process and a better offer, so I ended things with Google post in-person-interview but pre actually extending me an offer. What I will say is that from what I hear this sort of under-leveling is pretty normal and just how it is. Maybe it’s better now, I don’t know.
    - myko 4y ago
      Doesn't seem better now. Maybe certain teams do better? Seems rampant.
    - syndacks 4y ago
      You got trolled
      - operatingthetan 4y ago
        They're clearly incentivized to underlevel people and then take whatever they can get who accepts, so how is it a troll if it's business as usual?
    - jxf 4y ago
      > What I will say is that from what I hear this sort of under-leveling is pretty normal and just how it is. Maybe it’s better now, I don’t know. I was offered a position with G after I left a previous employer. I also felt that I was underleveled and expressed this, then declined the offer. This earned me a call from the SVP I would have been reporting to. The general philosophy they related to me was that G likes to see people perform _at Google_ and that leveling up is very easy, so if you're good, being underleveled isn't a problem because it will correct itself. "If it's so easy and you're impressed with my track record and believe it qualifies me for the role, as you said before, you should be convinced I'm at the level you mentioned." They hemmed and hawed and bit and said they would see what they could do. Eight (!) months later, long after I'd already accepted another role and told them about it, they got back to me with the higher level.
      - ZephyrBlu 4y ago
        I can't tell whether they're high on their own supply or they're trying to get people to accept lower comp. The fact they took 8mo to get back to suggests the former to me. As an SVP, why would you take time out of your day to try and convince a candidate to join the company only to low ball them? Makes no sense. The whole "we'll level you up quickly if you perform" is almost always bullshit. It usually takes at least 1yr no matter what.
        jeremy_wiebe 4y ago
        And the fact that the “level up quickly” promise is verbal, means they aren’t bound to anything. Get them to put it in writing if it’s important to you _before_ you sign an offer letter.
        brooksbp 4y ago
        It's not almost always bullshit. People just can't grok that their management does not agree that they're performing as stellar as they think.
        ZephyrBlu 4y ago
- ergocoder 4y ago
  That is absurd. I joined with a few years of experience from FAANG, and they slotted me as L5 (senior).
re 4y ago
> But he was slotted as an L4 Here's some context on that from Ryan: https://tinyclouds.org/residency https://tinyclouds.org/residency It does not sound like a typical Google software engineer position or one where leveling is particularly significant.
deleted 4y ago
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theamk 4y ago
There are many types of talent, even in programming, and Google requires a very specific one. As an extreme example, a best brain surgeon or businessman in the world would completely fail Google's software interview and be rejected.
- ergocoder 4y ago
  I can guarantee you that L4's bar is not that specific nor the best. A new grad joining Google for 2 years would likely reach L4.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

steveklabnik 4y ago

I interviewed at Google pre-pandemic, and they wanted me to start at an L4 as well.

heavyset_go 4y ago
That's nuts, what was their reasoning?
- steveklabnik 4y ago
  I don’t want to particularly get into all of it at this moment, as there were a lot of weird moving parts. In the end Cloudflare gave me a very straightforward process and a better offer, so I ended things with Google post in-person-interview but pre actually extending me an offer. What I will say is that from what I hear this sort of under-leveling is pretty normal and just how it is. Maybe it’s better now, I don’t know.
  - myko 4y ago
    Doesn't seem better now. Maybe certain teams do better? Seems rampant.
  - syndacks 4y ago
    You got trolled
    - operatingthetan 4y ago
      They're clearly incentivized to underlevel people and then take whatever they can get who accepts, so how is it a troll if it's business as usual?
  - jxf 4y ago
    > What I will say is that from what I hear this sort of under-leveling is pretty normal and just how it is. Maybe it’s better now, I don’t know. I was offered a position with G after I left a previous employer. I also felt that I was underleveled and expressed this, then declined the offer. This earned me a call from the SVP I would have been reporting to. The general philosophy they related to me was that G likes to see people perform _at Google_ and that leveling up is very easy, so if you're good, being underleveled isn't a problem because it will correct itself. "If it's so easy and you're impressed with my track record and believe it qualifies me for the role, as you said before, you should be convinced I'm at the level you mentioned." They hemmed and hawed and bit and said they would see what they could do. Eight (!) months later, long after I'd already accepted another role and told them about it, they got back to me with the higher level.
    - ZephyrBlu 4y ago
      I can't tell whether they're high on their own supply or they're trying to get people to accept lower comp. The fact they took 8mo to get back to suggests the former to me. As an SVP, why would you take time out of your day to try and convince a candidate to join the company only to low ball them? Makes no sense. The whole "we'll level you up quickly if you perform" is almost always bullshit. It usually takes at least 1yr no matter what.
      - jeremy_wiebe 4y ago
        And the fact that the “level up quickly” promise is verbal, means they aren’t bound to anything. Get them to put it in writing if it’s important to you _before_ you sign an offer letter.
      - brooksbp 4y ago
        It's not almost always bullshit. People just can't grok that their management does not agree that they're performing as stellar as they think.
        ZephyrBlu 4y ago
ergocoder 4y ago
That is absurd. I joined with a few years of experience from FAANG, and they slotted me as L5 (senior).

re 4y ago

> But he was slotted as an L4 Here's some context on that from Ryan: https://tinyclouds.org/residency https://tinyclouds.org/residency It does not sound like a typical Google software engineer position or one where leveling is particularly significant.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

theamk 4y ago

There are many types of talent, even in programming, and Google requires a very specific one. As an extreme example, a best brain surgeon or businessman in the world would completely fail Google's software interview and be rejected.

ergocoder 4y ago
I can guarantee you that L4's bar is not that specific nor the best. A new grad joining Google for 2 years would likely reach L4.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]