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Google definitely holds some of the blame here, and I'm glad to see that they've been completely transparent and apologetic with every instance of Contractor sh

Google definitely holds some of the blame here, and I'm glad to see that they've been completely transparent and apologetic with every instance of Contractor shadiness that's cropped up in the past couple of weeks. But don't try to drop facts because it doesn't suit your argument. They were contractors working for Google. Saying anything less than that is dishonest. You could just as easily fall further down the slippery slope and condemn the entire human race for the actions of a couple of contractors, because the contractors were humans.

Geee 15y ago
Why do you think Google hired these contractors? Why use contractors on these kind of dirty jobs? Do you honestly think that Google wasn't aware of what they were doing?
- drivebyacct2 15y ago
  Yes. (edit, I'd rather just say "I don't know"). "Do you honestly think that Google can be responsive for every aspect of their contractors?"
  - tsycho 15y ago
    Yeah, since contractors willfully, and without any prodding/directives/orders from their employers, like to spend their hours in labor-intensive tasks that just happen to be vandalizing their competitors' data. I wonder, under what tasks were these hours billed by the contractor?
    - drivebyacct2 15y ago
      I don't know, I also don't know why Google would risk their reputation to reverse a few streets in OSM. I simply don't know. I'm not making any excuses for anyone, but I've seen fellow employees do ALL SORTS of stupid things that they thought were good for the product or company they were working for, and their manager let alone their hiring company certainly didn't know about it.
      - tsycho 15y ago
        Fair point. It's also possible that maybe the contractors' manager knew or was complicit. I just find it difficult to believe that multiple such infractions (Mocality, OSM, fake Chrome reviews etc.) can all be blamed on rogue/stupid contractors, there are likely to be some rogue/stupid employees involved as well.
- mdwrigh2 15y ago
  Do you really think Google stands much to gain from scamming Kenyan businesses and messing up Open Street Maps (who, might I add, have received donations from Google)?
  - guard-of-terra 15y ago
    We have to build a mental model of what's happening. We have two at the moment: First, that one or more than one of workers in Google in India for some reason had strange sort of hatred towards OSM, not caused by they working for Google, which caused them to vandalize OSM objects in certain cities located in different hemisphere. Second, that they for reasons unknown were told to do that; Or the measure of their achievements could be influenced by OSM maps being worse; the profit has to be short-term and obvious for lower-level workers to fall for it. First seems to be highly improbable; second seems just improbable :) Right now second wins. Any other mental models?
    - guard-of-terra 15y ago
      Third model: a third party could be hurting Google by clumsily hurting OSM using double agents. Their goal was to make it to the news and then make Google take a PR hit. Who could be behind this?
eCa 15y ago
They were operating from within the Google network, while (presumably, otherwise they shouldn't be onsite) working for Google - hence the difference between being a contractor and an employee is pretty small. We have contractors onsite where I work. If they did something bad (especially if it is in any way related to what we do, as in all those recent Google cases) I would say that we would be to blame to the same extent as if they were employed by us. What Google should do, and probably should have done after the Kenyan thing, is terminate any and all contracts with the contracted firm.
- BuschnicK 15y ago
  Where does one draw the line? This feels a lot like group punishment: one member of the group does wrong, the whole group gets punished. Is that just? Should Google then proceed not to hire Indians again (assuming that was actually the contractor's nationality)? Also, to all the folks implying malicious intent: What does Google stand to gain from sabotaging Open Street Maps? Especially after sponsoring it for some years in a row via Summer of Code and similar initiatives?
  - AJ007 15y ago
    Yes, groups are routinely punished for actions of members. In the case of businesses, sometimes that means closing up shop, firing everyone, and sending the owners or bad actors to prison. Google can gain by saying, look, our maps are more accurate. Of course, it would have taken an idiot to believe that would work, just like someone who believes that they can change history by editing Wikipedia articles. I suspect there is pretty much zero chance that someone higher up at Google would be that dumb. Then again, one of the co-founders of this company thought it was ok to break US law in regard to illegal pharmaceutical sales. This has nothing to do with nationality. This has to do with vetting the quality and trustworthiness of those with access to Google's network, employee or otherwise. That is a pretty damn big deal in my opinion.
  - eCa 15y ago
    I would think that companies routinely end contracts with other businesses due to the actions of one or some of their employees. This is not group punishment, this is ending contracts with entities that misbehaves in serious ways in your name. Of course Google should continue to use Indians at their discresion. Anything else would be group punishment. Google doesn't stand to gain anything from sabotaging Open Streets Maps, but that does not mean that they are not responsible for sabotage in their name. That is not a contradiction.

Geee 15y ago

Why do you think Google hired these contractors? Why use contractors on these kind of dirty jobs? Do you honestly think that Google wasn't aware of what they were doing?

drivebyacct2 15y ago
Yes. (edit, I'd rather just say "I don't know"). "Do you honestly think that Google can be responsive for every aspect of their contractors?"
- tsycho 15y ago
  Yeah, since contractors willfully, and without any prodding/directives/orders from their employers, like to spend their hours in labor-intensive tasks that just happen to be vandalizing their competitors' data. I wonder, under what tasks were these hours billed by the contractor?
  - drivebyacct2 15y ago
    I don't know, I also don't know why Google would risk their reputation to reverse a few streets in OSM. I simply don't know. I'm not making any excuses for anyone, but I've seen fellow employees do ALL SORTS of stupid things that they thought were good for the product or company they were working for, and their manager let alone their hiring company certainly didn't know about it.
    - tsycho 15y ago
      Fair point. It's also possible that maybe the contractors' manager knew or was complicit. I just find it difficult to believe that multiple such infractions (Mocality, OSM, fake Chrome reviews etc.) can all be blamed on rogue/stupid contractors, there are likely to be some rogue/stupid employees involved as well.
mdwrigh2 15y ago
Do you really think Google stands much to gain from scamming Kenyan businesses and messing up Open Street Maps (who, might I add, have received donations from Google)?
- guard-of-terra 15y ago
  We have to build a mental model of what's happening. We have two at the moment: First, that one or more than one of workers in Google in India for some reason had strange sort of hatred towards OSM, not caused by they working for Google, which caused them to vandalize OSM objects in certain cities located in different hemisphere. Second, that they for reasons unknown were told to do that; Or the measure of their achievements could be influenced by OSM maps being worse; the profit has to be short-term and obvious for lower-level workers to fall for it. First seems to be highly improbable; second seems just improbable :) Right now second wins. Any other mental models?
  - guard-of-terra 15y ago
    Third model: a third party could be hurting Google by clumsily hurting OSM using double agents. Their goal was to make it to the news and then make Google take a PR hit. Who could be behind this?

eCa 15y ago

They were operating from within the Google network, while (presumably, otherwise they shouldn't be onsite) working for Google - hence the difference between being a contractor and an employee is pretty small. We have contractors onsite where I work. If they did something bad (especially if it is in any way related to what we do, as in all those recent Google cases) I would say that we would be to blame to the same extent as if they were employed by us. What Google should do, and probably should have done after the Kenyan thing, is terminate any and all contracts with the contracted firm.

BuschnicK 15y ago
Where does one draw the line? This feels a lot like group punishment: one member of the group does wrong, the whole group gets punished. Is that just? Should Google then proceed not to hire Indians again (assuming that was actually the contractor's nationality)? Also, to all the folks implying malicious intent: What does Google stand to gain from sabotaging Open Street Maps? Especially after sponsoring it for some years in a row via Summer of Code and similar initiatives?
- AJ007 15y ago
  Yes, groups are routinely punished for actions of members. In the case of businesses, sometimes that means closing up shop, firing everyone, and sending the owners or bad actors to prison. Google can gain by saying, look, our maps are more accurate. Of course, it would have taken an idiot to believe that would work, just like someone who believes that they can change history by editing Wikipedia articles. I suspect there is pretty much zero chance that someone higher up at Google would be that dumb. Then again, one of the co-founders of this company thought it was ok to break US law in regard to illegal pharmaceutical sales. This has nothing to do with nationality. This has to do with vetting the quality and trustworthiness of those with access to Google's network, employee or otherwise. That is a pretty damn big deal in my opinion.
- eCa 15y ago
  I would think that companies routinely end contracts with other businesses due to the actions of one or some of their employees. This is not group punishment, this is ending contracts with entities that misbehaves in serious ways in your name. Of course Google should continue to use Indians at their discresion. Anything else would be group punishment. Google doesn't stand to gain anything from sabotaging Open Streets Maps, but that does not mean that they are not responsible for sabotage in their name. That is not a contradiction.