8 ms·

I'm a fairly cutthroat free markets kinda guy, but this topic is very palpable, and distresses me a lot. It's one thing to hold people accountable for unproduct

I'm a fairly cutthroat free markets kinda guy, but this topic is very palpable, and distresses me a lot. It's one thing to hold people accountable for unproductive choices that keep them poor, but quite another to make it impossible for them to exercise better ones because the time-cost of dealing with the here and now prevents the full exercise of their industrious energy. We definitely should ensure that public transit is adequately capacious and on schedule, that public schools aren't bogged down in bureaucracy that saps academic learning time, and that there are enough incentives from the medical licensing gatekeepers to not impede the flow of competent healthcare workers in under served communities. (Among other things.)

carlosjobim 4y ago
A good solution for people who are poor is to combine the two most important things: Making money and saving money. You can do this by joining the merchant fleet, one of the military branches, or some other professional venture where your accommodation and other expenses are provided for you. If you take care with the choices you make with your money, you have the chance to dig yourself out of the hole. To those already writing your responses with what about the guy with an injured knee, or what about the guy who needs to stay home and take care of their grandmother: This advice is not for everyone, but there are thousands of poor people who could turn their life around this way - thousands already have.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > one of the military branches This can indeed turn your life around, but not in a good way, if you become a battle casualty. > where your accommodation and other expenses are provided for you Another time tax. In this case, your entire life 24 hours a day becomes regimented, and there's no "going home" after work.
  - harvey9 4y ago
    Combat roles are a minority of military jobs and vast numbers of people live off base with a somewhat 9-5 job.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      You seem to be missing the point. The OP said people could save a lot of money by living on base. Thus, living off base is irrelevant with regard to the aforementioned purpose.
      - harvey9 4y ago
        I should have been more specific. Even people on base may have 9-5 jobs and autonomy over how they spend time off the clock.
    - iinnPP 4y ago
      Sergeant: "Correct, there is no obligation. Unless, of course, war were declared." [Alarm goes off] Fry: "What's that?" Sergeant: "War were declared." Your solution for poor people is disgusting to say the least. It works for some, but that some is definitely not the remainder of those with bad limbs and/or a sick grandma.
    - acdha 4y ago
      Where I went to high school in the mid-90s, most of the kids who didn’t want to be farmers enlisted. They figured they’d mostly likely doing something like Bosnian peacekeeping. After 9/11, one of the guys I knew ended up getting sent to Afghanistan on short notice. Multiple vets I know had similar experiences: nobody says it shouldn’t be an option but they’re adamant that poor kids shouldn’t end up in the military because there’s no other way to pay for college.
      - harvey9 4y ago
        Even Bosnia was not risk-free. But I agree with your point that people shouldn't have to join out of desperation.
        acdha 4y ago
        Definitely not — I used that mostly because I think a lot of people really wanted to believe the post-Cold War future was going to be small-scale operations like that with limited hostilities and popular support. What came next was relatively predictable to anyone who'd studied history but a lot of 17 year olds weren't doing a deep-dive in their rush to get out of a depressing farm town.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    That's the point! If you do any of these endeavors you don't have a home to pay rent for. This is a solution for people to start digging themselves out of a hole. It doesn't fit all. Maybe you can make another suggestion for how a poor person can get out of his or her situation right now?
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > Maybe you can make another suggestion for how a poor person can get out of his or her situation right now? The linked article was not a request for personal financial advice.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  > joining the merchant fleet, one of the military branches, or some other professional venture where your accommodation and other expenses are provided for you. Requires education. Requires education. Requires education. So available to some, but not all of the poor. We're a long way from the days when people would be crimped into being sailors. And a couple of generations away from when people without a High School diploma or GED could join the military, at least in the USA.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    The USA is not the world, I don't understand why you would have such a perspective on an international forum like this? Of course there are ways for people to get a high school diploma even after high school if they want to join the military. As for education: You absolutely can join the commercial fleet without an education. There aren't any education requirements for kitchen hands or cabin cleaners. You have the mandatory safety training for work at sea, but usually the company hiring you will pay for that.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      That's why I said "at least in the USA". I can only speak to what I am familiar with. Would you rather no one say that "this advice is not applicable in my area"? I've seen so many older US citizens over the last decade or so say "join the military" that I want to push back on this. What was so during the Vietnam war, when a draft was ongoing, is not so anymore. I stand corrected wrt the merchant fleet.
      - carlosjobim 4y ago
        > That's why I said "at least in the USA". Yes, I have to give you credit for this. As to these senior citizens giving this advice and me giving this advice: It is a solution for many people. Speaking worldwide, so many thousands of poor are lifting themselves out of that destiny and becoming middle class through joining the military. Many do it in countries that haven't seen real war in a century. Instead of killing or being killed, their career might consist of things such as natural disaster relief. I'm disappointed - but not surprised - with the negative reaction of the HN commenters (not speaking about you) to any kind of suggestion for real life solutions. It is obvious that many people here prefer to discuss among themselves utopian fantasies of what other people - "the government" - should do some day in the future to help the poor. In the meanwhile it is for the poor to just stay poor and shut up until the geniuses bless them with a cure. The reason I mentioned the military branches, is because it is something almost all countries in the world have in common where you have your living expenses included. This is my main point, to both make and save money at the same time.
lapcat 4y ago
> It's one thing to hold people accountable for unproductive choices Could you explain what this means? Isn't poverty ipso facto its own kind of accountability, i.e., a financial accounting? I get the feeling, however, that a lot of people want to turn an amoral, economic system — free market capitalism, wherein supply and demand determine prices — into a moral system, wherein market forces essentially render judgments about the goodness or badness of individual participants, almost as if the so-called invisible hand of the market were the Hand of God.
- lr4444lr 4y ago
  For example, someone who buys a new car on little to no money down shouldn't come complaining to me if he loses his job that he cannot find a new job because the car was repossessed, when he could have bought a used, maybe not very pretty one outright for cash and had a stable resource. But he should have a nearby bus that runs at all hours of the day on schedule to go interview when he realizes the error of his ways.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    This story sounds oddly specific... May I ask how many people come complaining to you? In any case, how you treat your family and friends is your own business, but I'm unclear how you're holding anyone accountable, or how this is relevant to poverty in general?
baremetal 4y ago
>We definitely should ensure that public transit is adequately capacious and on schedule, that public schools aren't bogged down in bureaucracy that saps academic learning time, and that there are enough incentives from the medical licensing gatekeepers to not impede the flow of competent healthcare workers in under served communities. (Among other things.) I would add: encourage the trades by providing free schooling and work experience programs.
- iinnPP 4y ago
  Or just any schooling.

carlosjobim 4y ago

A good solution for people who are poor is to combine the two most important things: Making money and saving money. You can do this by joining the merchant fleet, one of the military branches, or some other professional venture where your accommodation and other expenses are provided for you. If you take care with the choices you make with your money, you have the chance to dig yourself out of the hole. To those already writing your responses with what about the guy with an injured knee, or what about the guy who needs to stay home and take care of their grandmother: This advice is not for everyone, but there are thousands of poor people who could turn their life around this way - thousands already have.

lapcat 4y ago
> one of the military branches This can indeed turn your life around, but not in a good way, if you become a battle casualty. > where your accommodation and other expenses are provided for you Another time tax. In this case, your entire life 24 hours a day becomes regimented, and there's no "going home" after work.
- harvey9 4y ago
  Combat roles are a minority of military jobs and vast numbers of people live off base with a somewhat 9-5 job.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    You seem to be missing the point. The OP said people could save a lot of money by living on base. Thus, living off base is irrelevant with regard to the aforementioned purpose.
    - harvey9 4y ago
      I should have been more specific. Even people on base may have 9-5 jobs and autonomy over how they spend time off the clock.
  - iinnPP 4y ago
    Sergeant: "Correct, there is no obligation. Unless, of course, war were declared." [Alarm goes off] Fry: "What's that?" Sergeant: "War were declared." Your solution for poor people is disgusting to say the least. It works for some, but that some is definitely not the remainder of those with bad limbs and/or a sick grandma.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Where I went to high school in the mid-90s, most of the kids who didn’t want to be farmers enlisted. They figured they’d mostly likely doing something like Bosnian peacekeeping. After 9/11, one of the guys I knew ended up getting sent to Afghanistan on short notice. Multiple vets I know had similar experiences: nobody says it shouldn’t be an option but they’re adamant that poor kids shouldn’t end up in the military because there’s no other way to pay for college.
    - harvey9 4y ago
      Even Bosnia was not risk-free. But I agree with your point that people shouldn't have to join out of desperation.
      - acdha 4y ago
        Definitely not — I used that mostly because I think a lot of people really wanted to believe the post-Cold War future was going to be small-scale operations like that with limited hostilities and popular support. What came next was relatively predictable to anyone who'd studied history but a lot of 17 year olds weren't doing a deep-dive in their rush to get out of a depressing farm town.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  That's the point! If you do any of these endeavors you don't have a home to pay rent for. This is a solution for people to start digging themselves out of a hole. It doesn't fit all. Maybe you can make another suggestion for how a poor person can get out of his or her situation right now?
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > Maybe you can make another suggestion for how a poor person can get out of his or her situation right now? The linked article was not a request for personal financial advice.
anonymouskimmer 4y ago
> joining the merchant fleet, one of the military branches, or some other professional venture where your accommodation and other expenses are provided for you. Requires education. Requires education. Requires education. So available to some, but not all of the poor. We're a long way from the days when people would be crimped into being sailors. And a couple of generations away from when people without a High School diploma or GED could join the military, at least in the USA.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  The USA is not the world, I don't understand why you would have such a perspective on an international forum like this? Of course there are ways for people to get a high school diploma even after high school if they want to join the military. As for education: You absolutely can join the commercial fleet without an education. There aren't any education requirements for kitchen hands or cabin cleaners. You have the mandatory safety training for work at sea, but usually the company hiring you will pay for that.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    That's why I said "at least in the USA". I can only speak to what I am familiar with. Would you rather no one say that "this advice is not applicable in my area"? I've seen so many older US citizens over the last decade or so say "join the military" that I want to push back on this. What was so during the Vietnam war, when a draft was ongoing, is not so anymore. I stand corrected wrt the merchant fleet.
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      > That's why I said "at least in the USA". Yes, I have to give you credit for this. As to these senior citizens giving this advice and me giving this advice: It is a solution for many people. Speaking worldwide, so many thousands of poor are lifting themselves out of that destiny and becoming middle class through joining the military. Many do it in countries that haven't seen real war in a century. Instead of killing or being killed, their career might consist of things such as natural disaster relief. I'm disappointed - but not surprised - with the negative reaction of the HN commenters (not speaking about you) to any kind of suggestion for real life solutions. It is obvious that many people here prefer to discuss among themselves utopian fantasies of what other people - "the government" - should do some day in the future to help the poor. In the meanwhile it is for the poor to just stay poor and shut up until the geniuses bless them with a cure. The reason I mentioned the military branches, is because it is something almost all countries in the world have in common where you have your living expenses included. This is my main point, to both make and save money at the same time.

lapcat 4y ago

> It's one thing to hold people accountable for unproductive choices Could you explain what this means? Isn't poverty ipso facto its own kind of accountability, i.e., a financial accounting? I get the feeling, however, that a lot of people want to turn an amoral, economic system — free market capitalism, wherein supply and demand determine prices — into a moral system, wherein market forces essentially render judgments about the goodness or badness of individual participants, almost as if the so-called invisible hand of the market were the Hand of God.

lr4444lr 4y ago
For example, someone who buys a new car on little to no money down shouldn't come complaining to me if he loses his job that he cannot find a new job because the car was repossessed, when he could have bought a used, maybe not very pretty one outright for cash and had a stable resource. But he should have a nearby bus that runs at all hours of the day on schedule to go interview when he realizes the error of his ways.
- lapcat 4y ago
  This story sounds oddly specific... May I ask how many people come complaining to you? In any case, how you treat your family and friends is your own business, but I'm unclear how you're holding anyone accountable, or how this is relevant to poverty in general?

baremetal 4y ago

>We definitely should ensure that public transit is adequately capacious and on schedule, that public schools aren't bogged down in bureaucracy that saps academic learning time, and that there are enough incentives from the medical licensing gatekeepers to not impede the flow of competent healthcare workers in under served communities. (Among other things.) I would add: encourage the trades by providing free schooling and work experience programs.

iinnPP 4y ago
Or just any schooling.