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> … alongside the rest of humanity in a collective development effort, as opposed to the alternative where we would be restricted by companies like Microsoft or

> … alongside the rest of humanity in a collective development effort, as opposed to the alternative where we would be restricted by companies like Microsoft or Apple, who only care about controlling us to make money. I was optimistic until I read this sentence. So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? The stated goals seem good at first glance but then the justifications go off the rails for me. > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. MacOS is BSD based and runs most OSS so, I’m not even sure how they are coming up to this point. Similarly, Windows has been used for development and teaching development at universities for a long time.

Swenrekcah 4y ago
> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Isn’t it rather that schools can’t force students to use proprietary software? They can have an Office license but they also have to maintain (or pay someone to) something like LibreOffice. I spent a year in a German university and all the computers could boot up to windows, Linux or BSD depending on the user’s preference.
lostmsu 4y ago
> You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Not gonna fly with over 50% of engineers. For a good reason too
impossiblefork 4y ago
>So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Wouldn't that be sensible though? If the software is gratis and FOSS, then all the children can use it in whatever context they want. This is not true for MacOS or Windows. People may not own MacOS devices or have the money for the licenses.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
  It would be quite sensible. If a private company tricked your school into training you on their stack... that's not an education, it's an ad (and corruption to boot). If you job wants to use MATLAB, they can train you on MATLAB. Your python/octave/whatever skills will transfer.
  - imoverclocked 4y ago
    I agree in spirit but not in practice. I used to think everybody using Matlab thinks like a programmer. The problem is that many people who use Matlab are something else first. Matlab is just the tool available to them that has a very specific set of functionality and a GUI to make it somewhat accessible. Octave is a great piece of software but I stopped championing for others after knowing enough scientists that just want to use a library for a minute that only works in Matlab because of some quirk or special function that doesn't exist in Octave. Another reason this doesn't quite work in practice is the interview. Imagine, potential employer asks if you have ever used Matlab. Two potential responses here: 1) No, I've used octave though. 2) Yes. Both are good answers but, convince me the typical employer wants to hear 1 over 2.
    - defrost 4y ago
      > many people who use Matlab are something else first. Pretty much, they're lab techs, engineers, physicists, etc. who gather and work with data as a primary role more so than programmers. > convince me the typical employer wants to hear 1 over 2. I can't, typically they're indifferent and they'll even take someone who has worked mainly with R. In my own experience a typical employer who asks about Matlab is seeking numerically competant employees to work with data, to create and look at plots and graphs, to run simulations, etc. They're typically more concerned with a prospects potential to do the role than they are with the specific tools used in the past, and will generally ask if prospects think they can work with in house tools or about the cost of bring tools the prospect wants to use in house.
traverseda 4y ago
The author of this blog post does not appear to be in any way affiliated with the author of this bill, or even live in the US for that matter. The head of the libreboot project has been involved in some controversy in the past, and I'm presuming this was written by her. It's not surprising to see her phrase this in some indelicate ways, given past hot takes, but I don't think you should let that affect your opinion on the bill itself too much.
thewebcount 4y ago
Agreed. This was such a stupid take that it’s going to turn off most who read it. I think the goal of the bill is great, but I wouldn’t take it seriously after reading this person’s take on it and would assume it was put forth by ideologues who have unrealistic expectations of how people actually live.
lalopalota 4y ago
> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools ... It means that the courts, government, etc. cannot require a form or document be submitted in Word format; their website can't require Internet Explorer or Chrome to be usable; stuff like that.

Swenrekcah 4y ago

> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Isn’t it rather that schools can’t force students to use proprietary software? They can have an Office license but they also have to maintain (or pay someone to) something like LibreOffice. I spent a year in a German university and all the computers could boot up to windows, Linux or BSD depending on the user’s preference.

lostmsu 4y ago

> You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Not gonna fly with over 50% of engineers. For a good reason too

impossiblefork 4y ago

>So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Wouldn't that be sensible though? If the software is gratis and FOSS, then all the children can use it in whatever context they want. This is not true for MacOS or Windows. People may not own MacOS devices or have the money for the licenses.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
It would be quite sensible. If a private company tricked your school into training you on their stack... that's not an education, it's an ad (and corruption to boot). If you job wants to use MATLAB, they can train you on MATLAB. Your python/octave/whatever skills will transfer.
- imoverclocked 4y ago
  I agree in spirit but not in practice. I used to think everybody using Matlab thinks like a programmer. The problem is that many people who use Matlab are something else first. Matlab is just the tool available to them that has a very specific set of functionality and a GUI to make it somewhat accessible. Octave is a great piece of software but I stopped championing for others after knowing enough scientists that just want to use a library for a minute that only works in Matlab because of some quirk or special function that doesn't exist in Octave. Another reason this doesn't quite work in practice is the interview. Imagine, potential employer asks if you have ever used Matlab. Two potential responses here: 1) No, I've used octave though. 2) Yes. Both are good answers but, convince me the typical employer wants to hear 1 over 2.
  - defrost 4y ago
    > many people who use Matlab are something else first. Pretty much, they're lab techs, engineers, physicists, etc. who gather and work with data as a primary role more so than programmers. > convince me the typical employer wants to hear 1 over 2. I can't, typically they're indifferent and they'll even take someone who has worked mainly with R. In my own experience a typical employer who asks about Matlab is seeking numerically competant employees to work with data, to create and look at plots and graphs, to run simulations, etc. They're typically more concerned with a prospects potential to do the role than they are with the specific tools used in the past, and will generally ask if prospects think they can work with in house tools or about the cost of bring tools the prospect wants to use in house.

traverseda 4y ago

The author of this blog post does not appear to be in any way affiliated with the author of this bill, or even live in the US for that matter. The head of the libreboot project has been involved in some controversy in the past, and I'm presuming this was written by her. It's not surprising to see her phrase this in some indelicate ways, given past hot takes, but I don't think you should let that affect your opinion on the bill itself too much.

thewebcount 4y ago

Agreed. This was such a stupid take that it’s going to turn off most who read it. I think the goal of the bill is great, but I wouldn’t take it seriously after reading this person’s take on it and would assume it was put forth by ideologues who have unrealistic expectations of how people actually live.

lalopalota 4y ago

> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools ... It means that the courts, government, etc. cannot require a form or document be submitted in Word format; their website can't require Internet Explorer or Chrome to be usable; stuff like that.