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New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

257 points by leahlibre 4y ago

leahlibre 4y ago
A hearing for a bill will take place in New Hampshire on February 16th, 2023, for a bill that, if passed, will require state agencies to accommodate libre software users in public-facing applications, so that people do not have to use proprietary software to access state services on the internet. Your help is needed. More information is available in the linked article.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  I read the article, but didn’t see a list of the proprietary software that’s required to interact with New Hampshirite state agencies. Are there examples of this problem?
  - TylerE 4y ago
    It’s not as bad currently, but 10 years ago it wasn’t that unusual to find things like government and bank websites using freaking ActiveX. These days I would imagine it means things like not publishing videos with (only) proprietary codecs, or using some sort of non-standard non-open 2fa or something.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    I'm not sure of New Hampshire's stage agencies, but the most common problem I've experiences interacting with government agencies is PDFs. The format is fairly well-designed to be easy to read so many libre software alternatives can view PDFs, but forms are another story. If a PDF form hasn't been tested in libre readers, it would be unwise to assume that it works in libre readers (or even some proprietary readers). And if testing discovers that it doesn't work, getting it to work isn't necessarily possible with the PDF editing tools available, as making their editors compatible with libre readers isn't exactly a priority for Adobe.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      The problem is new style PDF forms implemented with JS. Old style PDF forms should be handled by open source readers.
      - jxf 4y ago
        Truly had no idea there was JS in PDF forms now. Wild.
        kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
        It is bizarre considering they intentionally ripped out a lot of Postscript functionality from PDF to make it non-Turing complete.
    - gerdesj 4y ago
      I recently edited a pdf form using Okular (KDE app on Linux - Arch in this case). It was a pretty involved multi page bank mortgage related form. The app that designed this beauty was running on a Mac (can't remember more but I did see Mac in some metadata on it). One field went a bit odd - it would show one number and print another after I got my data entry a bit wrong and corrected it. Clearly a bug. I passed the form over to Chrome's pdf handler and got the same result. I also passed it through Windows based stuff - I run an IT company. Same result. I did eventually manage to clear the fault. If I recall correctly it was the day field for date of birth. My DoB is 7th December - I'm a Brit so 7/12. The field wanted 07 for single digit days and I entered 7 followed by the month numbers. So I ended up with 71 in the day field. Field validation was probably not a consideration for an admin in a bank tasked with knocking up a form used by millions of people! If that thing was from IT then they should look for another job. Anyway - Okular worked the same way as the rest and shared their faults. It did at least manage to look much prettier and work very, very quickly.
      - dotancohen 4y ago
        Okular uses the poppler PDF library under the hood - and probably do most other non-Adobe implementations. Each software package is not a complete reimplementation of the standard, so it is not unexpected that they share behavior (and bugs). If you can share the PDF we can file a bug report against poppler.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >Your help is needed. With all due respect, speaking as someone not in New Hampshire, your (and the article's) request to me and others like myself is a subversion of democracy. This New Hampshire state bill is being deliberated in the New Hampshire state legislature, to be eventually voted on by New Hampshire state legislators voted in by and representing the people of the state of New Hampshire. As a strictly state matter, any influence from outside the state of New Hampshire is a subversion of democracy in the state.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway892238 4y ago
    Sometimes democracy gets things wrong. States have historically liked to do fucked up shit and then hide behind "states' rights".
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - tb84 4y ago
        jesus dude get a grip
        steve_mcdougall 4y ago
        [flagged]
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    The people of New Hampshire and the United States have voted to protect free speech including by people who live outside of the state and the union. Corporations from other states and countries who don't like this bill make use of that. Proponents can too.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
Calling this “libre software” instead of “free software” seems very self-serving > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Linux or BSD are your only real choice, because that’s where all the interesting development happens. uh excuse me?
- nhooyr 4y ago
  He's not wrong. Certainly when it comes to the full scope of being a programmer, Linux and BSD are your only real options. You can't easily add a new filesystem or screw with the kernel on macOS/windows without having to buy hundreds of dollars worth of their books and attend conferences. There isn't really any good detailed up to date documentation online about either. The docs for linux/bsd aren't perfect either but at least there you can always fall back on the source. That makes a massive difference. For example, one of the reasons I switched from Java to Go back in the day is that I could actually read the source code of the APIs I was using. So I could fully understand the standard library whereas in Java it was all obfuscated bytecode. I'm not sure if the situation has changed with OpenJDK but my point stands, an open core system is far superior platform for learning.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    of course they’re wrong, there are thousands of competent programmers working on windows and macos, I love linux I just hate this kind of hyperbolic self-aggrandizing
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    It's not that Linux/BSD don't offer the most freedom (though as many have pointed out MacOS is essentially BSD with an Apple WM/GUI). It's the snobbishness of saying 'only ____ makes you a TWUE PWOGWAMMER'. You can see this to some extent in other professions. Cardiologists and neurosurgeons get paid big bucks because their job is life or death stuff and requires skill and innovation. But would you want to work with a cardiologist that goes around sneering at every other kind of medical professional and saying they're not real doctors? Of course not, because they're assholes and when people like that screw up they'll blame their colleagues or patient rather than admit fault. Back in the tech context, you can pursue authenticity into absurdity. You're not a real programmer unless you use (language). You're not a real programmer unless you contribute the language. You're not a real programmer unless you get into kernel hacking. Sure, you call yourself a programmer, but do you even assembler? Programming? Sorry, I design chips. Chips? Do you even basic circuit designs. Me, I roll my own capacitors built from carbon nanotubes...and so on up through materials science, physics, and mathematics.
imoverclocked 4y ago
> … alongside the rest of humanity in a collective development effort, as opposed to the alternative where we would be restricted by companies like Microsoft or Apple, who only care about controlling us to make money. I was optimistic until I read this sentence. So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? The stated goals seem good at first glance but then the justifications go off the rails for me. > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. MacOS is BSD based and runs most OSS so, I’m not even sure how they are coming up to this point. Similarly, Windows has been used for development and teaching development at universities for a long time.
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  > So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Isn’t it rather that schools can’t force students to use proprietary software? They can have an Office license but they also have to maintain (or pay someone to) something like LibreOffice. I spent a year in a German university and all the computers could boot up to windows, Linux or BSD depending on the user’s preference.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Not gonna fly with over 50% of engineers. For a good reason too
- impossiblefork 4y ago
  >So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Wouldn't that be sensible though? If the software is gratis and FOSS, then all the children can use it in whatever context they want. This is not true for MacOS or Windows. People may not own MacOS devices or have the money for the licenses.
Scubabear68 4y ago
I’m tempted to say this is a result of the politics of our times, but I guess extremism has been around forever. In this case they are taking what is, at its core, may be a pretty good idea, and then they load it down with rhetoric. And hence guarantee to turn off people with slightly different opinions, and confuse people who haven’t the slightest clue what they are talking about. Given that nearly everyone in the Western World works for some kind of corporation, starting off by calling them evil is not going to get you very far.
cjpearson 4y ago
That price is going to scare away most voters. $1000 per citizen for something that few people care about. You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It assumes that 90% of the affected software will be made compliant, but it's also possible that they just use proprietary exception for most applications. It would cost much less in that case, but it would do so by abandoning the purpose of the bill. The bill died in a unanimous vote last time around, and it's not going to anywhere close to success this time either. However some other parts of the 2022 bill (considering libre solutions for new applications, limiting NDAs and non-competes, allow audits of software used in criminal cases) are more feasible and might stand a chance if they're also split into new bills.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It probably should be. What might improve the bill is trying to get a similar bill passed in a few other state legislatures and working with them as a group to lower costs.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- leereeves 4y ago
  > $1000 per citizen How did they reach that figure? $1.4 billion dollars seems like far too much. Edit: Interesting. Their methodology talks about rewriting all the state's public-facing server side applications to be open source. (Hence the cost.) I thought the bill was just requiring that the public be able to use libre browsers and apps on their own devices to access state services, not that the state's server code had to be open source.
  - cjpearson 4y ago
    You can read their methodology in the bill text [0]. In short, there are 271 applications they found that must be brought into compliance and estimated the timeline and staffing costs based on similar recently completed projects. [0] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188&type=4 https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
Programmers have got to be the stupidest profession with regard to money. Every single profession, be they doctors, lawyers, actors, artists, tries to increase the value of their work. Programmers go out of their way to devalue the result of their work (software), with the result that the main ways to make money from software is either to use it to power ads, use it to power commerce (Amazon), or use it to power hardware (Apple) but not really to sell software itself.
- r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
  Yep. The ideology around foss developed as it did precisely because it's original proponents did not have to make a living from developing and selling software, but were instead academics who already had an income from elsewhere (tenure, grants, mummy and daddy etc.)
- lukifer 4y ago
  Perhaps you've never heard of Doctors Without Borders, pro bono, community theater, or the Creative Commons? There is more to life than merely maximizing one's bargaining leverage.
  - orbital223 4y ago
    Doctors without borders provide free labor to needy children in war torn countries. Programmers provide free labor to first world corporations worth millions of dolars.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      > Programmers provide free labor to first world corporations worth millions of dolars. The equivalent of this for doctors is called residency. It's an early stage in their career, during which they're laboring for free or being severely underpaid, in exchange for (sometimes) some experience, and finally for a stamp that certifies they're the real deal now - which lets them start charging for their labor properly. Software career progression is less streamlined and less credentialized - there are many paths to necessary skills, and many ways of proving you have them. Open source work is one way to credibly demonstrate the necessary skills, and can substitute for or complement your education or work history in your quest for negotiating a higher salary.
anigbrowl 4y ago
Don't expect government to go open source. Use open source to supersede government functionality.
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  How do I use open source to supercede filing taxes or pulling permits?
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    You don't get to just do it all at once. In the case of permits, for example, you could work towards something that documents agreements between groups of neighbors. My suggestion is that open source can be used to develop alternative governance structures, not that it is a free pass to get out of legal obligations.
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      The point is that legal obligations shouldn't mandate the use of proprietary software. There shouldn't be a government filing process that requires a proprietary application to fill in fields in a PDF or only accepts documents in Microsoft formats. Tax dollars should never go to Oracle.
1659447091 4y ago
I don't see new benefits to users as the user already has a choice in what computer they buy and what software to use. As far as I know, schools provide students with computers and if you use your own there are already ways to work with different file formats. I use OSS on MacOS all the time, works fine. US government data.gov provides many formats that require neither Apple nor Windows. File your taxes using a pen, envelope and stamp or use the online sites - no proprietary software needed. Use forms online through their web portal. I'm just not seeing where the friction is here to require a law. >>If no laws exist that protect libre software projects, then they are vulnerable. How so? People picking MacOS/Win over Linux because it's easier for them is a choice we already have. If you want to mess around with Linux, knock yourself out, but my parents won't. It also seem to want to force MacOS and Windows source code to be available for anyone to browse (poach) >>because if states stop relying on proprietary software licenses, the money they currently spend on that can instead be spent elsewhere, or on paying programmers That is what I'm already assuming I'm doing by buying MacOS because Apple pays the programmers that create their software that I choose to buy. So I'm supporting the programmers that made the software I use, as are the states when they pay Microsoft or who ever. A less directly related concern I have is that it reads as an outside group meddling with US law in order to force/manipulate a cascading effect, presumably because whatever country they are from is going to follow the US? Or on a less conspiral thought, it's abusing US law for something better severed by Marketing. >>I once again call to action, any person that lives in New Hampshire or the surrounding states in the USA. Your participation could help secure the rights of all libre software users and developers, well into the future. I myself do not live in the US, so I’m hoping that my American readers will listen well to what I have to say. [*note i appreciate the disclosure] >>...it will provide the libre software movement a foot in the door, that could lead to greater reform at a later date, and strengthen the entire movement. This is because of the knock-on effect it would have: as more people benefit from it, more states (in the US) and countries outside of the US may follow, implementing similar laws.
smeej 4y ago
Was a NH resident for years (recent ones, even). Can't think of a single time I had to interact with a state agency that required proprietary software. It would stand out if I had. The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings? Never had to have a hearing about anything. This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
- brk 4y ago
  Same. Former NH resident and have been a Linux / free software proponent for decades. For the most have not even had a functional Windows machine most of the time. Do not ever recall a scenario where I encountered some kind of proprietary software. We had multiple houses, cars, boats, dogs, other property. All kinds of things that I had to register or deal with the state on annually and can’t recall any issues.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings? As a Linux user, I don't even have a problem with this personally. Zoom is a free download, or you can use it in a browser (the native application works a lot better though). It may not be FOSS, but it doesn't keep me from using Linux, or require me to pay anything to attend a meeting. The FOSS alternatives to Zoom honestly are not good, especially if you're dealing with some kind of meeting with dozens or hundreds of participants. Even MS Teams works OK for Linux users; you just use it in a browser window. With so much stuff working in browsers these days, OS choice just isn't the problem it used to be 15-20 years ago. The only thing I can think of offhand where I had a problem was with a fillable PDF form I had to use for work a year or two ago: only actual Adobe software would work. I ended up having to use Wine, and even then had a lot of trouble.
- fatnoah 4y ago
  There are many web-based things that technically require Internet Explorer, even though other browsers seem to work fine. The real issue is likely that most of the things were built with IE in mind and only formally tested on IE. I feel like the real first step is simply to audit the functionality of these things in various browsers to see if they actually work properly or not.
NickNaraghi 4y ago
How would this affect something like Tornado Cash?
leepowers 4y ago
DoIT estimates the project will take at least 5 years to make the necessary changes resulting in a total state general fund cost of approximately $1.47 Billion .... Total Annual Cost $293,894,620 The Department states historically the cost of implementing a new application, whether replacing an existing application or implementing applications where none existed before, is three to seven times the cost of purchasing the software licenses. [1] Do the people of New Hampshire believe so strongly in using non-proprietary software that they're willing to take on this extra cost? Is there widespread support and understanding of free or libre software amongst the population? My experience has been that people have a transactional relationship to software, not a values-based one. Which is the main reason the various free software movements have yet to gain wide spread traction. People don't seem to care about how software is created and how it is licensed but whether it meets a particular need. (I need to file my taxes. I want to listen to music. I want to book a reservation, etc.) The challenge is not necessarily to "make software free" but to first get people to view software through a holistic, non-transactional lens. The hurdle for this legislation will be convincing legislators to spend $1.47bn on a software replacement that doesn't add any additional features. I mean, are citizens really going to care that the web-based interface they use to file their taxes is no longer using proprietary software under the hood? If they're viewing software through the transactional lens then this plan will seem wasteful and non-productive. [1] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188&type=4 https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...
- giantg2 4y ago
  I'll be downed hard for this, but... If it doesn't provide any benefits, then this is a philosophical change. Seems almost like a case for separation of church and state.
  - whateveracct 4y ago
    Philosophy and ideals are a perfectly fair argument when it comes to legislation like this. Even if it doesn't pass the MBA sniff test.
    - 4y ago
nerdjon 4y ago
This feels like a case that I really need an article explaining this not from their prospective. On here https://libreboot.org/news/usa-libre.html https://libreboot.org/news/usa-libre.html one of the examples given: "Bans state agencies from using proprietary software - maybe this could include schools, in the future!" "Bans state agencies from purchasing proprietary software if libre software exists, for a given task" That seems... excessive and way to heavy handed. Doesn't that reduce the ability of a specific agency to choose either the best or just what people are familiar with (which means what people will be effective with) software for a given task/department? Or am I completely misreading what this is saying? Advocating and educating people on open source or free available software is a good thing, but straight up requiring its use if it exists seems really bad and kinda counter to the culture that this kind of software should have.
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  Requiring people to use any particular software is bad. The government wanting to use libre software and passing a bill saying that it shall use libre software is not that.
  - nerdjon 4y ago
    How is it not given those 2 quotes? This sounds like it is requiring the use libra software even if the alternative is superior.
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      It's not a law that prohibits citizens from using proprietary software, it's a law that prohibits the government from doing it. But the government is the thing enforcing the law, so it's really just the government choosing not to use proprietary software itself.
      - nerdjon 4y ago
        You’re acting as if everyone in the New Hampshire government is making this decision when that is obviously not the case. Someone (or a group of people) decided to push a bill with their ideals that will impact everyone who works a government job in NH. So again this very much sounds like it is forcing people to use certain software instead of allowing a team or agency to be able to determine what is best for them. This is no better than a bill requiring the use of software from Microsoft and should not be encouraged. I would even argue it’s worse since it seems it’s being done under the idea of “freedom” when it’s obviously not actually for that.
userbinator 4y ago
As the state whose official motto is "live free or die", this might be the only place in the US where things like this may get noticed. That said, given how I've been mainly on the Windows side for the past decades and that hasn't stopped me from learning or being in control (although that is increasingly being taken away by the excuse of "security"), maybe enshrining the right to reverse-engineer and modify proprietary software is more important. Ironically, the Libreboot logo is remarkably reminiscent of John Deere's.
snvzz 4y ago
>16 February 2023, 1PM: prohibiting, with limited exceptions, state agencies from requiring use of proprietary software in interactions with the public (house bill: HB 617-FN) Seems pretty basic to me. What's concerning is that it isn't already law everywhere.

257 points by leahlibre 4y ago

A hearing for a bill will take place in New Hampshire on February 16th, 2023, for a bill that, if passed, will require state agencies to accommodate libre software users in public-facing applications, so that people do not have to use proprietary software to access state services on the internet. Your help is needed. More information is available in the linked article.

CharlesW 4y ago
I read the article, but didn’t see a list of the proprietary software that’s required to interact with New Hampshirite state agencies. Are there examples of this problem?
- TylerE 4y ago
  It’s not as bad currently, but 10 years ago it wasn’t that unusual to find things like government and bank websites using freaking ActiveX. These days I would imagine it means things like not publishing videos with (only) proprietary codecs, or using some sort of non-standard non-open 2fa or something.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  I'm not sure of New Hampshire's stage agencies, but the most common problem I've experiences interacting with government agencies is PDFs. The format is fairly well-designed to be easy to read so many libre software alternatives can view PDFs, but forms are another story. If a PDF form hasn't been tested in libre readers, it would be unwise to assume that it works in libre readers (or even some proprietary readers). And if testing discovers that it doesn't work, getting it to work isn't necessarily possible with the PDF editing tools available, as making their editors compatible with libre readers isn't exactly a priority for Adobe.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    The problem is new style PDF forms implemented with JS. Old style PDF forms should be handled by open source readers.
    - jxf 4y ago
      Truly had no idea there was JS in PDF forms now. Wild.
      - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
        It is bizarre considering they intentionally ripped out a lot of Postscript functionality from PDF to make it non-Turing complete.
  - gerdesj 4y ago
    I recently edited a pdf form using Okular (KDE app on Linux - Arch in this case). It was a pretty involved multi page bank mortgage related form. The app that designed this beauty was running on a Mac (can't remember more but I did see Mac in some metadata on it). One field went a bit odd - it would show one number and print another after I got my data entry a bit wrong and corrected it. Clearly a bug. I passed the form over to Chrome's pdf handler and got the same result. I also passed it through Windows based stuff - I run an IT company. Same result. I did eventually manage to clear the fault. If I recall correctly it was the day field for date of birth. My DoB is 7th December - I'm a Brit so 7/12. The field wanted 07 for single digit days and I entered 7 followed by the month numbers. So I ended up with 71 in the day field. Field validation was probably not a consideration for an admin in a bank tasked with knocking up a form used by millions of people! If that thing was from IT then they should look for another job. Anyway - Okular worked the same way as the rest and shared their faults. It did at least manage to look much prettier and work very, very quickly.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      Okular uses the poppler PDF library under the hood - and probably do most other non-Adobe implementations. Each software package is not a complete reimplementation of the standard, so it is not unexpected that they share behavior (and bugs). If you can share the PDF we can file a bug report against poppler.
Dalewyn 4y ago
>Your help is needed. With all due respect, speaking as someone not in New Hampshire, your (and the article's) request to me and others like myself is a subversion of democracy. This New Hampshire state bill is being deliberated in the New Hampshire state legislature, to be eventually voted on by New Hampshire state legislators voted in by and representing the people of the state of New Hampshire. As a strictly state matter, any influence from outside the state of New Hampshire is a subversion of democracy in the state.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway892238 4y ago
  Sometimes democracy gets things wrong. States have historically liked to do fucked up shit and then hide behind "states' rights".
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - tb84 4y ago
      jesus dude get a grip
      - steve_mcdougall 4y ago
        [flagged]
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  The people of New Hampshire and the United States have voted to protect free speech including by people who live outside of the state and the union. Corporations from other states and countries who don't like this bill make use of that. Proponents can too.

micromacrofoot 4y ago

Calling this “libre software” instead of “free software” seems very self-serving > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Linux or BSD are your only real choice, because that’s where all the interesting development happens. uh excuse me?

nhooyr 4y ago
He's not wrong. Certainly when it comes to the full scope of being a programmer, Linux and BSD are your only real options. You can't easily add a new filesystem or screw with the kernel on macOS/windows without having to buy hundreds of dollars worth of their books and attend conferences. There isn't really any good detailed up to date documentation online about either. The docs for linux/bsd aren't perfect either but at least there you can always fall back on the source. That makes a massive difference. For example, one of the reasons I switched from Java to Go back in the day is that I could actually read the source code of the APIs I was using. So I could fully understand the standard library whereas in Java it was all obfuscated bytecode. I'm not sure if the situation has changed with OpenJDK but my point stands, an open core system is far superior platform for learning.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  of course they’re wrong, there are thousands of competent programmers working on windows and macos, I love linux I just hate this kind of hyperbolic self-aggrandizing
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  It's not that Linux/BSD don't offer the most freedom (though as many have pointed out MacOS is essentially BSD with an Apple WM/GUI). It's the snobbishness of saying 'only ____ makes you a TWUE PWOGWAMMER'. You can see this to some extent in other professions. Cardiologists and neurosurgeons get paid big bucks because their job is life or death stuff and requires skill and innovation. But would you want to work with a cardiologist that goes around sneering at every other kind of medical professional and saying they're not real doctors? Of course not, because they're assholes and when people like that screw up they'll blame their colleagues or patient rather than admit fault. Back in the tech context, you can pursue authenticity into absurdity. You're not a real programmer unless you use (language). You're not a real programmer unless you contribute the language. You're not a real programmer unless you get into kernel hacking. Sure, you call yourself a programmer, but do you even assembler? Programming? Sorry, I design chips. Chips? Do you even basic circuit designs. Me, I roll my own capacitors built from carbon nanotubes...and so on up through materials science, physics, and mathematics.

imoverclocked 4y ago

> … alongside the rest of humanity in a collective development effort, as opposed to the alternative where we would be restricted by companies like Microsoft or Apple, who only care about controlling us to make money. I was optimistic until I read this sentence. So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? The stated goals seem good at first glance but then the justifications go off the rails for me. > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. MacOS is BSD based and runs most OSS so, I’m not even sure how they are coming up to this point. Similarly, Windows has been used for development and teaching development at universities for a long time.

Swenrekcah 4y ago
> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Isn’t it rather that schools can’t force students to use proprietary software? They can have an Office license but they also have to maintain (or pay someone to) something like LibreOffice. I spent a year in a German university and all the computers could boot up to windows, Linux or BSD depending on the user’s preference.
lostmsu 4y ago
> You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Not gonna fly with over 50% of engineers. For a good reason too
impossiblefork 4y ago
>So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser? Wouldn't that be sensible though? If the software is gratis and FOSS, then all the children can use it in whatever context they want. This is not true for MacOS or Windows. People may not own MacOS devices or have the money for the licenses.

Scubabear68 4y ago

I’m tempted to say this is a result of the politics of our times, but I guess extremism has been around forever. In this case they are taking what is, at its core, may be a pretty good idea, and then they load it down with rhetoric. And hence guarantee to turn off people with slightly different opinions, and confuse people who haven’t the slightest clue what they are talking about. Given that nearly everyone in the Western World works for some kind of corporation, starting off by calling them evil is not going to get you very far.

cjpearson 4y ago

That price is going to scare away most voters. $1000 per citizen for something that few people care about. You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It assumes that 90% of the affected software will be made compliant, but it's also possible that they just use proprietary exception for most applications. It would cost much less in that case, but it would do so by abandoning the purpose of the bill. The bill died in a unanimous vote last time around, and it's not going to anywhere close to success this time either. However some other parts of the 2022 bill (considering libre solutions for new applications, limiting NDAs and non-competes, allow audits of software used in criminal cases) are more feasible and might stand a chance if they're also split into new bills.

pessimizer 4y ago
> You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It probably should be. What might improve the bill is trying to get a similar bill passed in a few other state legislatures and working with them as a group to lower costs.
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leereeves 4y ago
> $1000 per citizen How did they reach that figure? $1.4 billion dollars seems like far too much. Edit: Interesting. Their methodology talks about rewriting all the state's public-facing server side applications to be open source. (Hence the cost.) I thought the bill was just requiring that the public be able to use libre browsers and apps on their own devices to access state services, not that the state's server code had to be open source.
- cjpearson 4y ago
  You can read their methodology in the bill text [0]. In short, there are 271 applications they found that must be brought into compliance and estimated the timeline and staffing costs based on similar recently completed projects. [0] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188&type=4 https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

Programmers have got to be the stupidest profession with regard to money. Every single profession, be they doctors, lawyers, actors, artists, tries to increase the value of their work. Programmers go out of their way to devalue the result of their work (software), with the result that the main ways to make money from software is either to use it to power ads, use it to power commerce (Amazon), or use it to power hardware (Apple) but not really to sell software itself.

r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
Yep. The ideology around foss developed as it did precisely because it's original proponents did not have to make a living from developing and selling software, but were instead academics who already had an income from elsewhere (tenure, grants, mummy and daddy etc.)
lukifer 4y ago
Perhaps you've never heard of Doctors Without Borders, pro bono, community theater, or the Creative Commons? There is more to life than merely maximizing one's bargaining leverage.
- orbital223 4y ago
  Doctors without borders provide free labor to needy children in war torn countries. Programmers provide free labor to first world corporations worth millions of dolars.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    > Programmers provide free labor to first world corporations worth millions of dolars. The equivalent of this for doctors is called residency. It's an early stage in their career, during which they're laboring for free or being severely underpaid, in exchange for (sometimes) some experience, and finally for a stamp that certifies they're the real deal now - which lets them start charging for their labor properly. Software career progression is less streamlined and less credentialized - there are many paths to necessary skills, and many ways of proving you have them. Open source work is one way to credibly demonstrate the necessary skills, and can substitute for or complement your education or work history in your quest for negotiating a higher salary.

anigbrowl 4y ago

Don't expect government to go open source. Use open source to supersede government functionality.

AnthonyMouse 4y ago
How do I use open source to supercede filing taxes or pulling permits?
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  You don't get to just do it all at once. In the case of permits, for example, you could work towards something that documents agreements between groups of neighbors. My suggestion is that open source can be used to develop alternative governance structures, not that it is a free pass to get out of legal obligations.
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    The point is that legal obligations shouldn't mandate the use of proprietary software. There shouldn't be a government filing process that requires a proprietary application to fill in fields in a PDF or only accepts documents in Microsoft formats. Tax dollars should never go to Oracle.

1659447091 4y ago

I don't see new benefits to users as the user already has a choice in what computer they buy and what software to use. As far as I know, schools provide students with computers and if you use your own there are already ways to work with different file formats. I use OSS on MacOS all the time, works fine. US government data.gov provides many formats that require neither Apple nor Windows. File your taxes using a pen, envelope and stamp or use the online sites - no proprietary software needed. Use forms online through their web portal. I'm just not seeing where the friction is here to require a law. >>If no laws exist that protect libre software projects, then they are vulnerable. How so? People picking MacOS/Win over Linux because it's easier for them is a choice we already have. If you want to mess around with Linux, knock yourself out, but my parents won't. It also seem to want to force MacOS and Windows source code to be available for anyone to browse (poach) >>because if states stop relying on proprietary software licenses, the money they currently spend on that can instead be spent elsewhere, or on paying programmers That is what I'm already assuming I'm doing by buying MacOS because Apple pays the programmers that create their software that I choose to buy. So I'm supporting the programmers that made the software I use, as are the states when they pay Microsoft or who ever. A less directly related concern I have is that it reads as an outside group meddling with US law in order to force/manipulate a cascading effect, presumably because whatever country they are from is going to follow the US? Or on a less conspiral thought, it's abusing US law for something better severed by Marketing. >>I once again call to action, any person that lives in New Hampshire or the surrounding states in the USA. Your participation could help secure the rights of all libre software users and developers, well into the future. I myself do not live in the US, so I’m hoping that my American readers will listen well to what I have to say. [*note i appreciate the disclosure] >>...it will provide the libre software movement a foot in the door, that could lead to greater reform at a later date, and strengthen the entire movement. This is because of the knock-on effect it would have: as more people benefit from it, more states (in the US) and countries outside of the US may follow, implementing similar laws.

smeej 4y ago

Was a NH resident for years (recent ones, even). Can't think of a single time I had to interact with a state agency that required proprietary software. It would stand out if I had. The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings? Never had to have a hearing about anything. This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

brk 4y ago
Same. Former NH resident and have been a Linux / free software proponent for decades. For the most have not even had a functional Windows machine most of the time. Do not ever recall a scenario where I encountered some kind of proprietary software. We had multiple houses, cars, boats, dogs, other property. All kinds of things that I had to register or deal with the state on annually and can’t recall any issues.
midoridensha 4y ago
>The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings? As a Linux user, I don't even have a problem with this personally. Zoom is a free download, or you can use it in a browser (the native application works a lot better though). It may not be FOSS, but it doesn't keep me from using Linux, or require me to pay anything to attend a meeting. The FOSS alternatives to Zoom honestly are not good, especially if you're dealing with some kind of meeting with dozens or hundreds of participants. Even MS Teams works OK for Linux users; you just use it in a browser window. With so much stuff working in browsers these days, OS choice just isn't the problem it used to be 15-20 years ago. The only thing I can think of offhand where I had a problem was with a fillable PDF form I had to use for work a year or two ago: only actual Adobe software would work. I ended up having to use Wine, and even then had a lot of trouble.
fatnoah 4y ago
There are many web-based things that technically require Internet Explorer, even though other browsers seem to work fine. The real issue is likely that most of the things were built with IE in mind and only formally tested on IE. I feel like the real first step is simply to audit the functionality of these things in various browsers to see if they actually work properly or not.

NickNaraghi 4y ago

How would this affect something like Tornado Cash?

leepowers 4y ago

DoIT estimates the project will take at least 5 years to make the necessary changes resulting in a total state general fund cost of approximately $1.47 Billion .... Total Annual Cost $293,894,620 The Department states historically the cost of implementing a new application, whether replacing an existing application or implementing applications where none existed before, is three to seven times the cost of purchasing the software licenses. [1] Do the people of New Hampshire believe so strongly in using non-proprietary software that they're willing to take on this extra cost? Is there widespread support and understanding of free or libre software amongst the population? My experience has been that people have a transactional relationship to software, not a values-based one. Which is the main reason the various free software movements have yet to gain wide spread traction. People don't seem to care about how software is created and how it is licensed but whether it meets a particular need. (I need to file my taxes. I want to listen to music. I want to book a reservation, etc.) The challenge is not necessarily to "make software free" but to first get people to view software through a holistic, non-transactional lens. The hurdle for this legislation will be convincing legislators to spend $1.47bn on a software replacement that doesn't add any additional features. I mean, are citizens really going to care that the web-based interface they use to file their taxes is no longer using proprietary software under the hood? If they're viewing software through the transactional lens then this plan will seem wasteful and non-productive. [1] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188&type=4 https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...

giantg2 4y ago
I'll be downed hard for this, but... If it doesn't provide any benefits, then this is a philosophical change. Seems almost like a case for separation of church and state.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  Philosophy and ideals are a perfectly fair argument when it comes to legislation like this. Even if it doesn't pass the MBA sniff test.
  - 4y ago

nerdjon 4y ago

This feels like a case that I really need an article explaining this not from their prospective. On here https://libreboot.org/news/usa-libre.html https://libreboot.org/news/usa-libre.html one of the examples given: "Bans state agencies from using proprietary software - maybe this could include schools, in the future!" "Bans state agencies from purchasing proprietary software if libre software exists, for a given task" That seems... excessive and way to heavy handed. Doesn't that reduce the ability of a specific agency to choose either the best or just what people are familiar with (which means what people will be effective with) software for a given task/department? Or am I completely misreading what this is saying? Advocating and educating people on open source or free available software is a good thing, but straight up requiring its use if it exists seems really bad and kinda counter to the culture that this kind of software should have.

AnthonyMouse 4y ago
Requiring people to use any particular software is bad. The government wanting to use libre software and passing a bill saying that it shall use libre software is not that.
- nerdjon 4y ago
  How is it not given those 2 quotes? This sounds like it is requiring the use libra software even if the alternative is superior.
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    It's not a law that prohibits citizens from using proprietary software, it's a law that prohibits the government from doing it. But the government is the thing enforcing the law, so it's really just the government choosing not to use proprietary software itself.
    - nerdjon 4y ago
      You’re acting as if everyone in the New Hampshire government is making this decision when that is obviously not the case. Someone (or a group of people) decided to push a bill with their ideals that will impact everyone who works a government job in NH. So again this very much sounds like it is forcing people to use certain software instead of allowing a team or agency to be able to determine what is best for them. This is no better than a bill requiring the use of software from Microsoft and should not be encouraged. I would even argue it’s worse since it seems it’s being done under the idea of “freedom” when it’s obviously not actually for that.

userbinator 4y ago

As the state whose official motto is "live free or die", this might be the only place in the US where things like this may get noticed. That said, given how I've been mainly on the Windows side for the past decades and that hasn't stopped me from learning or being in control (although that is increasingly being taken away by the excuse of "security"), maybe enshrining the right to reverse-engineer and modify proprietary software is more important. Ironically, the Libreboot logo is remarkably reminiscent of John Deere's.

snvzz 4y ago

>16 February 2023, 1PM: prohibiting, with limited exceptions, state agencies from requiring use of proprietary software in interactions with the public (house bill: HB 617-FN) Seems pretty basic to me. What's concerning is that it isn't already law everywhere.