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The Islamic Republic brings much misery, upheaval and deaths. I don’t really see your point.

by sgjohnson 4y ago

jacooper 4y ago
Syria now vs Syria pre-civil war. Which is better?
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  Living on your knees, or dying standing up. Which is better?
  - the_af 4y ago
    That's for the Iranians to decide. Some people would rather live under an oppressive regime rather than die during its death throes. I won't judge them. It's not for me to decide, not if it's not my country. Did we ever find out whether Iraqis preferred living under Saddam's dictatorship if the alternative was the turmoil that ensued afterwards, insurgency, terror attacks, ISIS, etc?
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      Considering Iran is actively trying to build a nuclear bomb, I’d say it’s a problem for the world, and I’m fairly certain that very few westerners would care about the well-being of the general population of Iran should they get too close to building one. An internal coup would likely be far better than an external one. The ayatollahs simply cannot remain in power. You don’t need to be an Iranian for this to matter to you.
      - jacooper 4y ago
        > Considering Iran is actively trying to build a nuclear bomb, I’d say it’s a problem for the world, and I’m fairly certain that very few westerners would care about the well-being of the general population of Iran should they get too close to building one. The apartheid occupation has a nuclear bomb that threatens the entire area, yet it seems fine for you?
        sgjohnson 4y ago
        > The apartheid occupation has a nuclear bomb that threatens the entire area, yet it seems fine for you? You mean Israel? How is Israel a nuclear threat to anybody? They don’t even admit that they have them, let alone threaten anybody.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Ask Syrians that are still underground because there is nobody to help them.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      That's a very naive worldview.
the_af 4y ago
Iraq now vs Iraq post military intervention in the ensuing years, the rise of ISIS, and the ongoing destabilization of the region is my point. I don't like the Islamic Republic. But do I wish war on the families living there? And what is the likelihood of something even worse rising there if a power vacuum with no clear goals is created in its stead? I'd say "very high", giving recent history. Lessons learned, right?
- mighty_donkey 4y ago
  Can you, in full honesty, tell me how much you know about Iran? You (and some others in the comment section) seem to only extrapolate from Iraq, a country with a completely different culture, economy, and sequence of events/trajectory etc.? This is quite concerning to say the very least. You are aware that you are comparing a situation that arose from a US military invasion (Iraq), with a grass-roots, cross-class and cultural movement that is being supported across the world (Iran)? You are aware that, for the first time, Iranians across Kurdistan, Zahedan, Tehran, Baluchistan are chanting the same slogans under the same values, fighting the same enemy? And yet you speak of "no clear goals" and "very high likelihoods", but it sounds like you are simply ignorant of the situation. The protests are not the result of foreign meddling, but rather the result of millions of Iranians with the agency and awareness to realize their situation is horrendous and existential, and they need to take a stand. Why? Because they are already at war. Having your child hung from a crane in public is war. Having your daughter raped and killed is war. Having your life savings taken from your is war. I am both an Iranian (with family in Iran) and a "Westerner", and I damn well implore all of my peers to support and amplify the voice of Iranians without feeling bad about whether they are encouraging "societal collapse" (an absurd argument). Supporting Iranians that have made their voices heard, shed blood and tears is not "foreign interference" or "wishing war", it is empathy and camaraderie for your fellow human. On a final note, the regime is not reformable. This means if me or someone else says "Iranians deserve democracy" or "human rights", this implies that one supports the collapse of the Islamic Republic. Why? Because one can not happen without the other. Ultimately, their fate is in their hands, but it is absolutely idiotic to sit here and gate-keep people from wishing the collapse of a psychopathic, murderous, raping, and looting regime.

The Islamic Republic brings much misery, upheaval and deaths. I don’t really see your point.

jacooper 4y ago

Syria now vs Syria pre-civil war. Which is better?

sgjohnson 4y ago
Living on your knees, or dying standing up. Which is better?
- the_af 4y ago
  That's for the Iranians to decide. Some people would rather live under an oppressive regime rather than die during its death throes. I won't judge them. It's not for me to decide, not if it's not my country. Did we ever find out whether Iraqis preferred living under Saddam's dictatorship if the alternative was the turmoil that ensued afterwards, insurgency, terror attacks, ISIS, etc?
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    Considering Iran is actively trying to build a nuclear bomb, I’d say it’s a problem for the world, and I’m fairly certain that very few westerners would care about the well-being of the general population of Iran should they get too close to building one. An internal coup would likely be far better than an external one. The ayatollahs simply cannot remain in power. You don’t need to be an Iranian for this to matter to you.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      > Considering Iran is actively trying to build a nuclear bomb, I’d say it’s a problem for the world, and I’m fairly certain that very few westerners would care about the well-being of the general population of Iran should they get too close to building one. The apartheid occupation has a nuclear bomb that threatens the entire area, yet it seems fine for you?
      - sgjohnson 4y ago
        > The apartheid occupation has a nuclear bomb that threatens the entire area, yet it seems fine for you? You mean Israel? How is Israel a nuclear threat to anybody? They don’t even admit that they have them, let alone threaten anybody.
- jacooper 4y ago
  Ask Syrians that are still underground because there is nobody to help them.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    That's a very naive worldview.

the_af 4y ago

Iraq now vs Iraq post military intervention in the ensuing years, the rise of ISIS, and the ongoing destabilization of the region is my point. I don't like the Islamic Republic. But do I wish war on the families living there? And what is the likelihood of something even worse rising there if a power vacuum with no clear goals is created in its stead? I'd say "very high", giving recent history. Lessons learned, right?

mighty_donkey 4y ago
Can you, in full honesty, tell me how much you know about Iran? You (and some others in the comment section) seem to only extrapolate from Iraq, a country with a completely different culture, economy, and sequence of events/trajectory etc.? This is quite concerning to say the very least. You are aware that you are comparing a situation that arose from a US military invasion (Iraq), with a grass-roots, cross-class and cultural movement that is being supported across the world (Iran)? You are aware that, for the first time, Iranians across Kurdistan, Zahedan, Tehran, Baluchistan are chanting the same slogans under the same values, fighting the same enemy? And yet you speak of "no clear goals" and "very high likelihoods", but it sounds like you are simply ignorant of the situation. The protests are not the result of foreign meddling, but rather the result of millions of Iranians with the agency and awareness to realize their situation is horrendous and existential, and they need to take a stand. Why? Because they are already at war. Having your child hung from a crane in public is war. Having your daughter raped and killed is war. Having your life savings taken from your is war. I am both an Iranian (with family in Iran) and a "Westerner", and I damn well implore all of my peers to support and amplify the voice of Iranians without feeling bad about whether they are encouraging "societal collapse" (an absurd argument). Supporting Iranians that have made their voices heard, shed blood and tears is not "foreign interference" or "wishing war", it is empathy and camaraderie for your fellow human. On a final note, the regime is not reformable. This means if me or someone else says "Iranians deserve democracy" or "human rights", this implies that one supports the collapse of the Islamic Republic. Why? Because one can not happen without the other. Ultimately, their fate is in their hands, but it is absolutely idiotic to sit here and gate-keep people from wishing the collapse of a psychopathic, murderous, raping, and looting regime.