8 ms·

I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

42 points by andrewl 4y ago

carride 4y ago
https://archive.ph/jk4OB https://archive.ph/jk4OB
elecush 4y ago
Mindset and Setting are so important to have right. If you are not in the right mindset, go do something else. It reads like the dosage was also a bit too high for the first time, and while I appreciate medical purity levels in things the doc can give you, injecting everything is just ew. You can get plenty of that active ingredient ingesting it like a normal savage through your face like God intended. Anyway, ketamine is not a psychedelic, is it? And if you're 65, find some younger friends and go to a rave. I think the clinical setting is maybe the least helpful for overcoming the emotions you don't want. Too bad the damage is already done with articles like this one, that don't need further inspection by most of the population. Why, one anecdotal uncomfortable experience by someone shafted by the medical sector cashing in on research results without mastery of the medium, just one is enough to derail helpful research and exploration for decades. Is it grossly irresponsible to post what should be in the Erowid experience vault to the Washington Post? Uh. yeah. Yeah it is.
- WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
  > It reads like the dosage was also a bit too high for the first time, and while I appreciate medical purity levels in things the doc can give you, injecting everything is just ew. I was thinking about this when the author said he was transiting from lozenge to injection. I'd of wanted to stay with lozenges until that experience became more productive.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  Did you seriously just suggest that people should ignore treatment suggestions by real doctors and go to a rave? And then have the gall to call the author irresponsible? This is one of the many reasons why normal people are disgusted by rave culture.
  - benmoose 4y ago
    Those disgusted by rave culture really should get out more
    - greesil 4y ago
      I'm terrified that somewhere, someone is having a good time.
    - subjectsigma 4y ago
      My girlfriend used to go to camping raves and had to stop. She described the culture as “really smelly and pretty rape-y depending on the set list”. Sounds just lovely. She still listens to the music, though, much to my chagrin as I think its fucking terrible.
  - voisin 4y ago
    > one of the many reasons why normal people are disgusted by rave culture I’ve never been to a rave but I’ve also never met anyone in my life who has expressed disgust by rave culture. Is this a thing?
    - jungledeuce 4y ago
      You don’t know enough white suburban conservative Christian seniors. I agree it’s not exactly a huge group, but in my experience in the Midwest that’s where you might find disgust. Everywhere else? I agree, normal people are not in general “disgusted” by kids at parties dancing all night dressed in neon or whatever the kids these days do.
      - tdehnel 4y ago
        [flagged]
        jungledeuce 4y ago
        [flagged]
- JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
  > > and go to a rave Does the rave music become any good once you pop MDMA? I don't like EDM and unless the MDMA also changes musical tastes then I'd rather be listening to classical, acid rock or ProgRock. Or watch a movie or better yet be having sex if the stim dick I keep hearing about doesn't present itself.
  - pdntspa 4y ago
    The music is fantastic without drugs, you just have to go to shows that don't cater to the "EDM" crowd. (If everyone looks like frat bros, thats them) However, in the case of really obnoxious dubstep, LSD definitely helps
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Invictus0 4y ago
I have taken LSD but not ketamine. It seems crazy to me to take a psychedelic while in any remotely depressed mental state. Even though the author knew it helps to have a positive mindset, I imagine her mindset was not really that positive at all, having been depressed for many years. I don't think we should treat these drugs as panacea, and I don't think our understanding of depression is strong enough to definitely prescribe these in one case versus another.
- WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
  > It seems crazy to me to take a psychedelic while in any remotely depressed mental state. I don't think we can apply the same broad stipulations to every psychotropic. I expect we'll eventually become very skilled at treatment and when we do, each substance would require a unique set patient preparation and prequalifications.
NotPavlovsDog 4y ago
Anecdotes and auto-biographies are the easiest to write, as they require the least research and one is already so familiar with the protagonist. It will be nice to see ketamine and psychedelics as part of a toolbox professionals can use for treatment. Many current antidepressants cause strong suicidal and homicidal urges. Look at the widely prescribed citalopram disclaimer. Here's an anecdote: close person to me was crying from how hard they wanted to end it all, as well as delivered urinary tract problems, for life, from one month of citalopram, as per prescription dose. Or you know, we could discuss somewhat proper research in connection to treatment for depression. The current chemical solutions have so many side-effects that there is a reason medical professionals have been proactively trying and seeking alternative treatment. Ketamine appears very promising.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  I don't think "this is a possible result of this treatment, as observed one time" is an illegitimate subject of inquiry because it's not a table of statistics.
  - Mattasher 4y ago
    It's also worth considering that this one person's experience may represent the reactions of many. Over two-decades ago the Chicago Reader published one of the most fascinating "drug memoirs" I've ever read, and the author also had a terrible reaction to Ketamine, albeit under very bad circumstances: https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics/me-and-my-monkey/ https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics/me-and-my-monkey/
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    If you check possible side-effects of very common medicine you can probably find some terrifying stuff that happens to 1 out of 10 million people. If it gets reported on in the media, it would seem a lot more common than it is. To be clear I'm not saying that's the case here, I have no idea.
EMM_386 4y ago
I was given ketamine to reduce my dislocated shoulder. I experienced something very similar to what the author writes, ending up in a black void and feeling like I'm tumbling into nothingness. I remember yelling out in the ER "no, no, NO!" as the spinning and tumbling toward the void increased. I believe recreational uses refer to this as the "k-hole" and I found it extremely unpleasant.
- digianarchist 4y ago
  There's a BBC Scotland video that shows a NHS patient being administered ketamine for a fractured ankle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htApRMWDueg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htApRMWDueg
electric_mayhem 4y ago
Can’t possibly discount the possibility that this is FUD put out by the pharmaceutical industry to counterweight the increased openness to psychedelics, in part from Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind book and Netflix series. My experience has been that with proper set and setting, I got months of relief from a good psychedelic experience. Shrooms. My first mushroom trip I had tears streaming down my face for something like two hours- but there was such profound relief along with it, like I was feeling and letting go of decades of the sorts of things that get a person a complex trauma diagnosis. I’ve tried LSD; it was more cerebral whereas shrooms had a more emotional component. LSD didn’t provide that sort of relief. But the visuals were stunning (which, while newt to experience, isn’t what I was hoping for). Also tried ketamine sessions at my primary care dr’s office. Did not like it; during the trip, which seemed to have a duration of eternity, I was a disembodied consciousness considering my life. I could genuinely see this as being somewhere between disconcerting and alarming as hell to a first -timer. Also, it wasn’t particularly cathartic and the clinical setting was an unwelcome distraction.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  I'm sure you could find some unhappy trip experiences on erowid if you believe it is literally impossible that anyone could have a negative experience.
  - jungledeuce 4y ago
    I had a single terrible experience with dissociatives, to the point that for many many years I had ongoing panic attacks. It was an absolute nightmare for a long time as I was never sure when one might strike. Without data it’s hard to say how dangerous these drugs are, but they are dangerous. People will pipe in with how you need the right setting and mindset and on and on, it’s never the drug it’s always the patient. But even if that’s all true, none of that is objectively verifiable, people will still have terrible, life-changing experiences, and we should better understand the rate at which they will before prescribing it broadly.
  - htag 4y ago
    A piece can be both FUD and true. In fact, often times the more truth that is in the piece the better it can be at sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt. 1. The author admits there was not a long term negative impact on his treatment. 2. People have negative reactions to depression treatments every day. Many of them are much worse. Virtually none of them end up in the washington post. 3. Untreated depression can have a much worse outcome than this treatment had on this patient. 4. This article provides no statistical information required to accurately judge the effectiveness of the treatment, or to compare it to other depression treatments, or to compare it to untreated depression. If this data showed a bleak view of ketamine treatment I think it would have been included in the article, given it's tone.
jerry1979 4y ago
Ketamine treatment seems to induce mania in some people. A friend sent me a picture he took of a notice posted on the wall of a ketamine clinic. It read as a rambling screed about the virtues of ketamine. I really wish I could find that picture. After receiving treatment, my friend became manic, and then he crashed and killed himself. There seems to be some literature that discusses mania from ketamine: https://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/bipolar/ketamine-induced-manic-episode/ https://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/bipolar/ketamine-induced-ma...
NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
One of the major problems with "standard" psychotropic medications is that there's no standard information out there about what to expect while taking it. And by that I mean, meds such as antidepressants, mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, tranquilizers are intended to place the user into an altered mental state, but nobody will tell us what that AMS will be like, experientally. They can easily tell us about side effects, especially physiological ones, and we can watch out for those side effects, but what about the primary effects? What about how we are supposed to feel, the advantages, why am I taking these meds in the first place? My doctors, for the past 30 years, have been wholly incapable of communicating these simple facts to me. So it's interesting to me, when psychiatry branches into formerly-recreational drugs such as ketamine, LSD, peyote, etc, that there is already a large and substantial body of information about what that altered state of consciousness should be like. Artists have written songs, they've painted pictures, they've composed poetry, they've written novels about it. So I think that's the only real advantage to psychedelics and such, in that there is actually more documentation on their primary effects, and so I wish all the best to clinicians as they grapple with trying to recreate Haight-Ashbury and Golden Gate Park in a sterile, dreary, clinical setting.
- lampshades 4y ago
  > I wish all the best to clinicians as they grapple with trying to recreate Haight-Ashbury in a sterile, dreary, clinical setting. I couldn't imagine using psychedelics without being able to go outside (at night, day tripping isn't for me). From the article: > In the days that followed I still didn’t feel like myself. Detached. I feel like this when I do mushrooms. I've also been in trips that scared the shit out of me (the most terrifying times of my life in fact), but they've all been beneficial in the long run. I wonder if this man's life will change more than he expects it to. I've never done ketamine so I have no idea what it's like.
jkcorrea 4y ago
Unfortunate the author 1) wasn't made aware of just how mind altering of an experience it can be and 2) seems to have been misled that this treatment can simply "cure depression" on its own It's my experience that psychedelics can help open your mind to different perspectives and spot unaddressed issues (I believe they're issues you just aren't "allowing" yourself to see/address), but to just take it in a clinical setting and expect it to work some magic on you.. Idk. K can be incredibly dissociative in recreational doses & this person was given ~10-20x a recreational dose - with very little warning of the gravity of the effects. I can totally imagine why it was such a terrifying experience! I agree with another commenter about the importance of mindset and setting. For most people, even getting to the point in their lives where they can & are willing to take psychedelics (non-clinical settings) is a long journey that shouldn't be discounted. Not saying we shouldn't pursue it in more clinical ways, just that the journey & mindset BEFORE taking the drugs is just as, if not MORE, important than the drugs themselves
- badactor 4y ago
  I’ve read enough anecdotes to conclude that most clinics are downright irresponsible. This could be in part due to the newish nature of the treatment. I was fortunate to find a professional clinic in my area for IV treatment, but even as a semi-experienced drug user, ketamine was a lot at times. Fortunately, the clinic slowly ramped up dosage each session, always confirming my comfort with increasing the dose. I now do at-home lozenges and let me tell you, 200mg is about as far as I can push it without things getting scary. For someone new to psychedelics, this would be a terrifying amount.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
I went through ketamine therapy and it was the greatest thing I've ever done for myself. In about two days, 20 years of depression lifted. It's not a pleasant experience, and to be clear I used the nasal spray because it's covered by insurance (at no cost!) but it was life changing. I went through 8 weeks of it last year and the positive benefits have continued with no negatives. One caveat: The clinic I went to required that patients be on medication for depression at the time of the treatment. I've often wondered if someone was not on medication would it be different. I did not see any hallucinations, just felt body-drunk. It's been 8 months and I can still honestly say it is the best thing I ever did for myself.
ClassyJacket 4y ago
I accidentally K-holed once (entirely my own careless fault) and it remains one of the scariest and most unpleasant experiences of my life. Despite years of debilitating depression I'm so terrified of feeling even 10% or 20% of the way to that again that I just don't think I could do it. I'm aware you're not supposed to K-hole from the controlled medical dose, or even from most recreational use, but the feeling of losing my connection to my senses and body was so horrible I just don't think I could bring myself to put any more in me ever again.
throwaway892238 4y ago
Very sad. What she's describing sounds like an intense fear of lack of control, trust issues, paranoia. By accepting her fears as valid, she is reinforcing the need for the blanket of control and distrust that she's probably been walking around with since childhood. > But this was when I felt that I needed it most. Maybe that's the reason it didn't work. If you're in distress, throwing yourself into the ocean might not calm you.
klyrs 4y ago
There's an increasing body of research on low-dose ketamine, which appears to be effective for persistent suicidal ideation and treatment-resistant depression. That these clinics give hero doses right out of the gate seems weird.
celdon25 4y ago
A relative of mine had an experience like that with Ketamine, believing that she was dead. And a friend of mine had extremely bad nausea from it. It is definitely not for everyone.
jevinskie 4y ago
I was making great progress with Spravato (eskatamine nasal spray) from April until the end of July. I then moved from California to Indiana and it took over a month and a half to find someone who could provide treatment (terrible mental health care in the state). Unfortunately I have never been able to reach a disassociative state since then and even spacing the treatments three weeks apart I haven’t been able to feel much effect at all anymore. Does tolerance build up that quickly? It doesn’t help that Jansen and insurance won’t cover any more than 3x doses (I take them in one visit) a week. I’ve thought about IV infusion which could give a higher dose but those treatments are also hard to find in Indiana and aren’t covered by insurance (about $1000 a treatment). Two weeks ago I tried 1/4 oz of shrooms and 5 days later 800 ug of LSD. Besides the body load, the shrooms made me a bit giddy with slightly enhanced colors while the LSD only produced a few visual patterns. Clearly something wasn’t right if those doses weren’t sending me into space like they did 5+ years ago the last time I was using psychedelics. I discontinued my medications, including Vraylar and Wellbutrin since they seem to have saturated my neuroreceptors or something. Since then I am feeling 100% better (going from 5-15/100 of my original mental health state to about 40-50/100 compared to pre-depression). I’m hoping with more weeks off of my previous medications, they might again have an effect but I’m wondering what other people’s experiences have been.
- htag 4y ago
  I am not a doctor, but I have seen some very negative reactions when people stop taking pharmaceuticals to use psychedelics again. I think the combination of your ketamine treatments reducing in effectiveness, the instability from moving, the adjustment period of discontinuing those medications, and the intent on taking such high doses of psychedelics is a concerning combination. If you are unable to find the medical treatment you need in Indiana my suggestion is to relocate to a place that you do have access to the correct medical treatment.
operator1 4y ago
I’ve been undergoing ketamine IV treatment every 3-4 weeks, and some of my experiences, especially the first few, were also terrifying. It reminded me a lot of the fear and panic I get from getting too high with weed. But at the same time, many of my depression symptoms were significantly improved almost immediately. I feel “unstuck” in the days and weeks following treatment and can course correct some of my stubborn depressive tendencies that have been going on for years. So that’s annoying. The experiences are unpleasant but the longer term effects are useful. The anxiety is definitely the hardest part for me, and I have some health-related OCD stuff, so the constant “checking” that I’m not going crazy is challenging too. I was legitimately worried for a little while that it was making me psychotic after, but my doctor confirmed that my symptoms matched intense anxiety and not psychosis so that helped me relax. And they subside most importantly. Now I’ve done ketamine a bunch of times and know it isn’t going to hurt me. I can almost completely relax into it, though a stressful image or feeling I experience can still induce a bit of panic. For some reason those tend to come up right at the end of my session, if they do at all. But regardless, I’ve gotten better at riding those like waves and letting them go. For someone like myself with high anxiety, I do wonder if there’s a better way to mentally prepare for experiences like this? Maybe some kind of coaching beforehand? I had an intro call, quick health screening, an orientation where was told a bunch of facts, asked if I had any questions, and that was basically it. I didn’t know how incredibly difficult it could be and was not mentally prepared to begin treatment. I’m okay now, but it was not an easy ride. I imagine science is still figuring a lot of this stuff out.

42 points by andrewl 4y ago

https://archive.ph/jk4OB https://archive.ph/jk4OB

Mindset and Setting are so important to have right. If you are not in the right mindset, go do something else. It reads like the dosage was also a bit too high for the first time, and while I appreciate medical purity levels in things the doc can give you, injecting everything is just ew. You can get plenty of that active ingredient ingesting it like a normal savage through your face like God intended. Anyway, ketamine is not a psychedelic, is it? And if you're 65, find some younger friends and go to a rave. I think the clinical setting is maybe the least helpful for overcoming the emotions you don't want. Too bad the damage is already done with articles like this one, that don't need further inspection by most of the population. Why, one anecdotal uncomfortable experience by someone shafted by the medical sector cashing in on research results without mastery of the medium, just one is enough to derail helpful research and exploration for decades. Is it grossly irresponsible to post what should be in the Erowid experience vault to the Washington Post? Uh. yeah. Yeah it is.

WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
> It reads like the dosage was also a bit too high for the first time, and while I appreciate medical purity levels in things the doc can give you, injecting everything is just ew. I was thinking about this when the author said he was transiting from lozenge to injection. I'd of wanted to stay with lozenges until that experience became more productive.
subjectsigma 4y ago
Did you seriously just suggest that people should ignore treatment suggestions by real doctors and go to a rave? And then have the gall to call the author irresponsible? This is one of the many reasons why normal people are disgusted by rave culture.
- benmoose 4y ago
  Those disgusted by rave culture really should get out more
  - greesil 4y ago
    I'm terrified that somewhere, someone is having a good time.
  - subjectsigma 4y ago
    My girlfriend used to go to camping raves and had to stop. She described the culture as “really smelly and pretty rape-y depending on the set list”. Sounds just lovely. She still listens to the music, though, much to my chagrin as I think its fucking terrible.
- voisin 4y ago
  > one of the many reasons why normal people are disgusted by rave culture I’ve never been to a rave but I’ve also never met anyone in my life who has expressed disgust by rave culture. Is this a thing?
  - jungledeuce 4y ago
    You don’t know enough white suburban conservative Christian seniors. I agree it’s not exactly a huge group, but in my experience in the Midwest that’s where you might find disgust. Everywhere else? I agree, normal people are not in general “disgusted” by kids at parties dancing all night dressed in neon or whatever the kids these days do.
    - tdehnel 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - jungledeuce 4y ago
        [flagged]
JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
> > and go to a rave Does the rave music become any good once you pop MDMA? I don't like EDM and unless the MDMA also changes musical tastes then I'd rather be listening to classical, acid rock or ProgRock. Or watch a movie or better yet be having sex if the stim dick I keep hearing about doesn't present itself.
- pdntspa 4y ago
  The music is fantastic without drugs, you just have to go to shows that don't cater to the "EDM" crowd. (If everyone looks like frat bros, thats them) However, in the case of really obnoxious dubstep, LSD definitely helps
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Invictus0 4y ago

I have taken LSD but not ketamine. It seems crazy to me to take a psychedelic while in any remotely depressed mental state. Even though the author knew it helps to have a positive mindset, I imagine her mindset was not really that positive at all, having been depressed for many years. I don't think we should treat these drugs as panacea, and I don't think our understanding of depression is strong enough to definitely prescribe these in one case versus another.

WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
> It seems crazy to me to take a psychedelic while in any remotely depressed mental state. I don't think we can apply the same broad stipulations to every psychotropic. I expect we'll eventually become very skilled at treatment and when we do, each substance would require a unique set patient preparation and prequalifications.

NotPavlovsDog 4y ago

Anecdotes and auto-biographies are the easiest to write, as they require the least research and one is already so familiar with the protagonist. It will be nice to see ketamine and psychedelics as part of a toolbox professionals can use for treatment. Many current antidepressants cause strong suicidal and homicidal urges. Look at the widely prescribed citalopram disclaimer. Here's an anecdote: close person to me was crying from how hard they wanted to end it all, as well as delivered urinary tract problems, for life, from one month of citalopram, as per prescription dose. Or you know, we could discuss somewhat proper research in connection to treatment for depression. The current chemical solutions have so many side-effects that there is a reason medical professionals have been proactively trying and seeking alternative treatment. Ketamine appears very promising.

emodendroket 4y ago
I don't think "this is a possible result of this treatment, as observed one time" is an illegitimate subject of inquiry because it's not a table of statistics.
- Mattasher 4y ago
  It's also worth considering that this one person's experience may represent the reactions of many. Over two-decades ago the Chicago Reader published one of the most fascinating "drug memoirs" I've ever read, and the author also had a terrible reaction to Ketamine, albeit under very bad circumstances: https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics/me-and-my-monkey/ https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics/me-and-my-monkey/
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- cinntaile 4y ago
  If you check possible side-effects of very common medicine you can probably find some terrifying stuff that happens to 1 out of 10 million people. If it gets reported on in the media, it would seem a lot more common than it is. To be clear I'm not saying that's the case here, I have no idea.

EMM_386 4y ago

I was given ketamine to reduce my dislocated shoulder. I experienced something very similar to what the author writes, ending up in a black void and feeling like I'm tumbling into nothingness. I remember yelling out in the ER "no, no, NO!" as the spinning and tumbling toward the void increased. I believe recreational uses refer to this as the "k-hole" and I found it extremely unpleasant.

digianarchist 4y ago
There's a BBC Scotland video that shows a NHS patient being administered ketamine for a fractured ankle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htApRMWDueg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htApRMWDueg

electric_mayhem 4y ago

Can’t possibly discount the possibility that this is FUD put out by the pharmaceutical industry to counterweight the increased openness to psychedelics, in part from Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind book and Netflix series. My experience has been that with proper set and setting, I got months of relief from a good psychedelic experience. Shrooms. My first mushroom trip I had tears streaming down my face for something like two hours- but there was such profound relief along with it, like I was feeling and letting go of decades of the sorts of things that get a person a complex trauma diagnosis. I’ve tried LSD; it was more cerebral whereas shrooms had a more emotional component. LSD didn’t provide that sort of relief. But the visuals were stunning (which, while newt to experience, isn’t what I was hoping for). Also tried ketamine sessions at my primary care dr’s office. Did not like it; during the trip, which seemed to have a duration of eternity, I was a disembodied consciousness considering my life. I could genuinely see this as being somewhere between disconcerting and alarming as hell to a first -timer. Also, it wasn’t particularly cathartic and the clinical setting was an unwelcome distraction.

emodendroket 4y ago
I'm sure you could find some unhappy trip experiences on erowid if you believe it is literally impossible that anyone could have a negative experience.
- jungledeuce 4y ago
  I had a single terrible experience with dissociatives, to the point that for many many years I had ongoing panic attacks. It was an absolute nightmare for a long time as I was never sure when one might strike. Without data it’s hard to say how dangerous these drugs are, but they are dangerous. People will pipe in with how you need the right setting and mindset and on and on, it’s never the drug it’s always the patient. But even if that’s all true, none of that is objectively verifiable, people will still have terrible, life-changing experiences, and we should better understand the rate at which they will before prescribing it broadly.
- htag 4y ago
  A piece can be both FUD and true. In fact, often times the more truth that is in the piece the better it can be at sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt. 1. The author admits there was not a long term negative impact on his treatment. 2. People have negative reactions to depression treatments every day. Many of them are much worse. Virtually none of them end up in the washington post. 3. Untreated depression can have a much worse outcome than this treatment had on this patient. 4. This article provides no statistical information required to accurately judge the effectiveness of the treatment, or to compare it to other depression treatments, or to compare it to untreated depression. If this data showed a bleak view of ketamine treatment I think it would have been included in the article, given it's tone.

jerry1979 4y ago

Ketamine treatment seems to induce mania in some people. A friend sent me a picture he took of a notice posted on the wall of a ketamine clinic. It read as a rambling screed about the virtues of ketamine. I really wish I could find that picture. After receiving treatment, my friend became manic, and then he crashed and killed himself. There seems to be some literature that discusses mania from ketamine: https://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/bipolar/ketamine-induced-manic-episode/ https://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/bipolar/ketamine-induced-ma...

NoZebra120vClip 4y ago

One of the major problems with "standard" psychotropic medications is that there's no standard information out there about what to expect while taking it. And by that I mean, meds such as antidepressants, mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, tranquilizers are intended to place the user into an altered mental state, but nobody will tell us what that AMS will be like, experientally. They can easily tell us about side effects, especially physiological ones, and we can watch out for those side effects, but what about the primary effects? What about how we are supposed to feel, the advantages, why am I taking these meds in the first place? My doctors, for the past 30 years, have been wholly incapable of communicating these simple facts to me. So it's interesting to me, when psychiatry branches into formerly-recreational drugs such as ketamine, LSD, peyote, etc, that there is already a large and substantial body of information about what that altered state of consciousness should be like. Artists have written songs, they've painted pictures, they've composed poetry, they've written novels about it. So I think that's the only real advantage to psychedelics and such, in that there is actually more documentation on their primary effects, and so I wish all the best to clinicians as they grapple with trying to recreate Haight-Ashbury and Golden Gate Park in a sterile, dreary, clinical setting.

lampshades 4y ago
> I wish all the best to clinicians as they grapple with trying to recreate Haight-Ashbury in a sterile, dreary, clinical setting. I couldn't imagine using psychedelics without being able to go outside (at night, day tripping isn't for me). From the article: > In the days that followed I still didn’t feel like myself. Detached. I feel like this when I do mushrooms. I've also been in trips that scared the shit out of me (the most terrifying times of my life in fact), but they've all been beneficial in the long run. I wonder if this man's life will change more than he expects it to. I've never done ketamine so I have no idea what it's like.

jkcorrea 4y ago

Unfortunate the author 1) wasn't made aware of just how mind altering of an experience it can be and 2) seems to have been misled that this treatment can simply "cure depression" on its own It's my experience that psychedelics can help open your mind to different perspectives and spot unaddressed issues (I believe they're issues you just aren't "allowing" yourself to see/address), but to just take it in a clinical setting and expect it to work some magic on you.. Idk. K can be incredibly dissociative in recreational doses & this person was given ~10-20x a recreational dose - with very little warning of the gravity of the effects. I can totally imagine why it was such a terrifying experience! I agree with another commenter about the importance of mindset and setting. For most people, even getting to the point in their lives where they can & are willing to take psychedelics (non-clinical settings) is a long journey that shouldn't be discounted. Not saying we shouldn't pursue it in more clinical ways, just that the journey & mindset BEFORE taking the drugs is just as, if not MORE, important than the drugs themselves

badactor 4y ago
I’ve read enough anecdotes to conclude that most clinics are downright irresponsible. This could be in part due to the newish nature of the treatment. I was fortunate to find a professional clinic in my area for IV treatment, but even as a semi-experienced drug user, ketamine was a lot at times. Fortunately, the clinic slowly ramped up dosage each session, always confirming my comfort with increasing the dose. I now do at-home lozenges and let me tell you, 200mg is about as far as I can push it without things getting scary. For someone new to psychedelics, this would be a terrifying amount.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

I went through ketamine therapy and it was the greatest thing I've ever done for myself. In about two days, 20 years of depression lifted. It's not a pleasant experience, and to be clear I used the nasal spray because it's covered by insurance (at no cost!) but it was life changing. I went through 8 weeks of it last year and the positive benefits have continued with no negatives. One caveat: The clinic I went to required that patients be on medication for depression at the time of the treatment. I've often wondered if someone was not on medication would it be different. I did not see any hallucinations, just felt body-drunk. It's been 8 months and I can still honestly say it is the best thing I ever did for myself.

ClassyJacket 4y ago

I accidentally K-holed once (entirely my own careless fault) and it remains one of the scariest and most unpleasant experiences of my life. Despite years of debilitating depression I'm so terrified of feeling even 10% or 20% of the way to that again that I just don't think I could do it. I'm aware you're not supposed to K-hole from the controlled medical dose, or even from most recreational use, but the feeling of losing my connection to my senses and body was so horrible I just don't think I could bring myself to put any more in me ever again.

throwaway892238 4y ago

Very sad. What she's describing sounds like an intense fear of lack of control, trust issues, paranoia. By accepting her fears as valid, she is reinforcing the need for the blanket of control and distrust that she's probably been walking around with since childhood. > But this was when I felt that I needed it most. Maybe that's the reason it didn't work. If you're in distress, throwing yourself into the ocean might not calm you.

klyrs 4y ago

There's an increasing body of research on low-dose ketamine, which appears to be effective for persistent suicidal ideation and treatment-resistant depression. That these clinics give hero doses right out of the gate seems weird.

celdon25 4y ago

A relative of mine had an experience like that with Ketamine, believing that she was dead. And a friend of mine had extremely bad nausea from it. It is definitely not for everyone.

jevinskie 4y ago

I was making great progress with Spravato (eskatamine nasal spray) from April until the end of July. I then moved from California to Indiana and it took over a month and a half to find someone who could provide treatment (terrible mental health care in the state). Unfortunately I have never been able to reach a disassociative state since then and even spacing the treatments three weeks apart I haven’t been able to feel much effect at all anymore. Does tolerance build up that quickly? It doesn’t help that Jansen and insurance won’t cover any more than 3x doses (I take them in one visit) a week. I’ve thought about IV infusion which could give a higher dose but those treatments are also hard to find in Indiana and aren’t covered by insurance (about $1000 a treatment). Two weeks ago I tried 1/4 oz of shrooms and 5 days later 800 ug of LSD. Besides the body load, the shrooms made me a bit giddy with slightly enhanced colors while the LSD only produced a few visual patterns. Clearly something wasn’t right if those doses weren’t sending me into space like they did 5+ years ago the last time I was using psychedelics. I discontinued my medications, including Vraylar and Wellbutrin since they seem to have saturated my neuroreceptors or something. Since then I am feeling 100% better (going from 5-15/100 of my original mental health state to about 40-50/100 compared to pre-depression). I’m hoping with more weeks off of my previous medications, they might again have an effect but I’m wondering what other people’s experiences have been.

htag 4y ago
I am not a doctor, but I have seen some very negative reactions when people stop taking pharmaceuticals to use psychedelics again. I think the combination of your ketamine treatments reducing in effectiveness, the instability from moving, the adjustment period of discontinuing those medications, and the intent on taking such high doses of psychedelics is a concerning combination. If you are unable to find the medical treatment you need in Indiana my suggestion is to relocate to a place that you do have access to the correct medical treatment.

operator1 4y ago

I’ve been undergoing ketamine IV treatment every 3-4 weeks, and some of my experiences, especially the first few, were also terrifying. It reminded me a lot of the fear and panic I get from getting too high with weed. But at the same time, many of my depression symptoms were significantly improved almost immediately. I feel “unstuck” in the days and weeks following treatment and can course correct some of my stubborn depressive tendencies that have been going on for years. So that’s annoying. The experiences are unpleasant but the longer term effects are useful. The anxiety is definitely the hardest part for me, and I have some health-related OCD stuff, so the constant “checking” that I’m not going crazy is challenging too. I was legitimately worried for a little while that it was making me psychotic after, but my doctor confirmed that my symptoms matched intense anxiety and not psychosis so that helped me relax. And they subside most importantly. Now I’ve done ketamine a bunch of times and know it isn’t going to hurt me. I can almost completely relax into it, though a stressful image or feeling I experience can still induce a bit of panic. For some reason those tend to come up right at the end of my session, if they do at all. But regardless, I’ve gotten better at riding those like waves and letting them go. For someone like myself with high anxiety, I do wonder if there’s a better way to mentally prepare for experiences like this? Maybe some kind of coaching beforehand? I had an intro call, quick health screening, an orientation where was told a bunch of facts, asked if I had any questions, and that was basically it. I didn’t know how incredibly difficult it could be and was not mentally prepared to begin treatment. I’m okay now, but it was not an easy ride. I imagine science is still figuring a lot of this stuff out.