4 ms·

This applies to all kinds of jobs. For example, in Indiana a dental hygienist requires 1 year of college courses and 2 years of dental hygienist courses. IMO

by prirun 4y ago

This applies to all kinds of jobs. For example, in Indiana a dental hygienist requires 1 year of college courses and 2 years of dental hygienist courses. IMO this is not necessary to take X-rays and scrape teeth. They are not diagnosing anything, treating anything, or prescribing anything, and there is such a shortage of them locally that dentists are having to send their patients needing their teeth cleaned to other dentists who have a hygienist already on their staff.

kqr2 4y ago
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/14/524007928/episode-381-when-business-loves-regulation https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/14/524007928/epis... On today's show: Why it was illegal to braid hair without a license in Utah. And why hundreds of licensing rules in states all around the country are a disaster for the U.S. economy.
- Overtonwindow 4y ago
  It's also illegal in 13 states to talk with another individual about food and diet without a license. However, only one modality may get that license, and you are required to pay a private trade association in order to keep that license current.
  - jrs235 4y ago
    Look into who owns the entities that provide the "education" courses that are required to get licensed. IIRC, a Wisconsin state legislator owned a beauty school (or perhaps his spouse did). I think in WI it was 2000 hours or something required to get a license to cut hair, more hours required training than police officers at the time. Again, IIRC.
- analog31 4y ago
  Without listening to the show, I'd like it if there was some mechanism to assure that a person who braids hair is capable of dealing with issues such as basic hygiene, blood borne diseases, and so forth. With that said, the license and whatever minimal training is needed, could be provided for free. Likewise for a dental hygienist, who is doing things like operating X-Ray equipment and other invasive gadgets. I don't think the solution is to de-regulate this kind of thing.
vba616 4y ago
I went to a grocery store today, and they had a sign saying they want to hire pharmacy technicians...for $20/hr...with experience. Here is apparently what being a pharmacy tech involves in NY: https://ptcbtestprep.com/state-requirements/pharmacy-tech-license-new-york/ https://ptcbtestprep.com/state-requirements/pharmacy-tech-li... This may or may not be a good wage by your standards and location. But relative to jobs that have no real qualifications or experience needed, that have been putting up signs for $15/hr recently, it was kind of astounding to me. It suggests to me they are exploiting people based on the cynical assumption that the qualifications are a sunk cost and replacing the current workforce is not the employers' problem.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Skilled workers earning 33% more than unskilled workers is incentive enough to learn skills. Why do you think they need to be higher than that? The whole point of increasing minimum wage so much is to push down high skill wages relative low skill wages, so that low skill humans don't have to live such a destitute life. That is what Democrats are pushing for, so why do you see the intended result as a bad thing?
  - trimethylpurine 4y ago
    At $20/hr minus costs invested for education, this pharmacy tech earns less in total until they are around 45 or 50 years old. They would have been better off taking a job frying potatoes. You might suggest that this would cause a shortage of techs, thereby increasing the wages, but it doesn't, because the people investing in the cost of that required education aren't educated about what they are signing up for. So essentially, what's happened here is that a large corporation has prayed upon the naivety of a younger tech who was sold a worthless education and is now stuck in a low wage job with no way to declare bankrupty against those education costs. What Democrats are pushing for is corporate control of government, same as Republicans. We should absolutely be bothered by this.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  There may be other factors that you don’t know about like flexibility or workload. If you’re working like a donkey at a busy CVS (high stress, shitty company), a less busy grocery store may be a better gig. Even marginal/trainable skills draw a premium. We have a good friend who owns a seafood restaurant - she’s paying $30/hr to shuck oysters.
Spooky23 4y ago
Lol. I used to go to a community college to have my teeth cleaned by students for $5. Yeah, they need training. Usually it’s an associates program. Dentists are notorious for being greedy idiots. Hygienists make $30-45/hr, and have a portable skill. So unless you’re super flexible, they’ll jump with the market if the dentist tries to cheap out.
bsder 4y ago
> They are not diagnosing anything, treating anything, or prescribing anything, and there is such a shortage of them locally that dentists are having to send their patients needing their teeth cleaned to other dentists who have a hygienist already on their staff. They are cleaning your teeth. This means that they need to have understanding of hygiene and sterilization. There are regularly incidents where someone in a dentists office sterilizes something wrong and some disease gets transmitted. Do NOT assume that nurses, hygienists, etc. understand things even as basic as germ theory and its implications. Do NOT assume that laypeople understand just how bad industrial chemicals can be. etc. A 2 year degree barely teaches enough for people to be functional in jobs that can affect someone else's health. The solution to a lack of people for <job> is to PAY MORE MONEY. Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand?
- prirun 4y ago
  > They are cleaning your teeth. This means that they need to have understanding of hygiene and sterilization. There are regularly incidents where someone in a dentists office sterilizes something wrong and some disease gets transmitted. And there always will be, regardless of how many years of college the staff has. > Do NOT assume that nurses, hygienists, etc. understand things even as basic as germ theory and its implications. Do NOT assume that laypeople understand just how bad industrial chemicals can be. etc. If nurses don't understand these things and they have had many years of training, that seems to argue that additional training does not improve outcomes. And for the record, I'm not saying I want Joe Blow to be hired yesterday and start cleaning teeth today. A trade training program is of course necessary to acquire the skills and learn the procedures to perform <skilled job>. But I don't think it's necessary to have college-level germ theory background to understand how to sterilize equipment and why it's important. > A 2 year degree barely teaches enough for people to be functional in jobs that can affect someone else's health. I won't disagree there, because I think college is pretty useless these days other than to give you the piece of paper that lets companies easily filter potential employees, with non-college applicants going in the trash. > The solution to a lack of people for <job> is to PAY MORE MONEY. Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand? I agree with you that companies have taken advantage of employees for a very long time and am glad that workers are pushing back on low wages and unreasonable employment situations. But if we keep requiring more credentialing at high expense that people simply cannot afford without crippling loans, you can't fix that with higher wages. The result would be that teeth cleaning would become unaffordable to the average person. Oh wait, I know the solution to that: more insurance! (See: medical care)

by prirun 4y ago

kqr2 4y ago

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/14/524007928/episode-381-when-business-loves-regulation https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/14/524007928/epis... On today's show: Why it was illegal to braid hair without a license in Utah. And why hundreds of licensing rules in states all around the country are a disaster for the U.S. economy.

Overtonwindow 4y ago
It's also illegal in 13 states to talk with another individual about food and diet without a license. However, only one modality may get that license, and you are required to pay a private trade association in order to keep that license current.
- jrs235 4y ago
  Look into who owns the entities that provide the "education" courses that are required to get licensed. IIRC, a Wisconsin state legislator owned a beauty school (or perhaps his spouse did). I think in WI it was 2000 hours or something required to get a license to cut hair, more hours required training than police officers at the time. Again, IIRC.
analog31 4y ago
Without listening to the show, I'd like it if there was some mechanism to assure that a person who braids hair is capable of dealing with issues such as basic hygiene, blood borne diseases, and so forth. With that said, the license and whatever minimal training is needed, could be provided for free. Likewise for a dental hygienist, who is doing things like operating X-Ray equipment and other invasive gadgets. I don't think the solution is to de-regulate this kind of thing.

vba616 4y ago

I went to a grocery store today, and they had a sign saying they want to hire pharmacy technicians...for $20/hr...with experience. Here is apparently what being a pharmacy tech involves in NY: https://ptcbtestprep.com/state-requirements/pharmacy-tech-license-new-york/ https://ptcbtestprep.com/state-requirements/pharmacy-tech-li... This may or may not be a good wage by your standards and location. But relative to jobs that have no real qualifications or experience needed, that have been putting up signs for $15/hr recently, it was kind of astounding to me. It suggests to me they are exploiting people based on the cynical assumption that the qualifications are a sunk cost and replacing the current workforce is not the employers' problem.

Jensson 4y ago
Skilled workers earning 33% more than unskilled workers is incentive enough to learn skills. Why do you think they need to be higher than that? The whole point of increasing minimum wage so much is to push down high skill wages relative low skill wages, so that low skill humans don't have to live such a destitute life. That is what Democrats are pushing for, so why do you see the intended result as a bad thing?
- trimethylpurine 4y ago
  At $20/hr minus costs invested for education, this pharmacy tech earns less in total until they are around 45 or 50 years old. They would have been better off taking a job frying potatoes. You might suggest that this would cause a shortage of techs, thereby increasing the wages, but it doesn't, because the people investing in the cost of that required education aren't educated about what they are signing up for. So essentially, what's happened here is that a large corporation has prayed upon the naivety of a younger tech who was sold a worthless education and is now stuck in a low wage job with no way to declare bankrupty against those education costs. What Democrats are pushing for is corporate control of government, same as Republicans. We should absolutely be bothered by this.
Spooky23 4y ago
There may be other factors that you don’t know about like flexibility or workload. If you’re working like a donkey at a busy CVS (high stress, shitty company), a less busy grocery store may be a better gig. Even marginal/trainable skills draw a premium. We have a good friend who owns a seafood restaurant - she’s paying $30/hr to shuck oysters.

Spooky23 4y ago

Lol. I used to go to a community college to have my teeth cleaned by students for $5. Yeah, they need training. Usually it’s an associates program. Dentists are notorious for being greedy idiots. Hygienists make $30-45/hr, and have a portable skill. So unless you’re super flexible, they’ll jump with the market if the dentist tries to cheap out.

bsder 4y ago

> They are not diagnosing anything, treating anything, or prescribing anything, and there is such a shortage of them locally that dentists are having to send their patients needing their teeth cleaned to other dentists who have a hygienist already on their staff. They are cleaning your teeth. This means that they need to have understanding of hygiene and sterilization. There are regularly incidents where someone in a dentists office sterilizes something wrong and some disease gets transmitted. Do NOT assume that nurses, hygienists, etc. understand things even as basic as germ theory and its implications. Do NOT assume that laypeople understand just how bad industrial chemicals can be. etc. A 2 year degree barely teaches enough for people to be functional in jobs that can affect someone else's health. The solution to a lack of people for <job> is to PAY MORE MONEY. Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand?

prirun 4y ago
> They are cleaning your teeth. This means that they need to have understanding of hygiene and sterilization. There are regularly incidents where someone in a dentists office sterilizes something wrong and some disease gets transmitted. And there always will be, regardless of how many years of college the staff has. > Do NOT assume that nurses, hygienists, etc. understand things even as basic as germ theory and its implications. Do NOT assume that laypeople understand just how bad industrial chemicals can be. etc. If nurses don't understand these things and they have had many years of training, that seems to argue that additional training does not improve outcomes. And for the record, I'm not saying I want Joe Blow to be hired yesterday and start cleaning teeth today. A trade training program is of course necessary to acquire the skills and learn the procedures to perform <skilled job>. But I don't think it's necessary to have college-level germ theory background to understand how to sterilize equipment and why it's important. > A 2 year degree barely teaches enough for people to be functional in jobs that can affect someone else's health. I won't disagree there, because I think college is pretty useless these days other than to give you the piece of paper that lets companies easily filter potential employees, with non-college applicants going in the trash. > The solution to a lack of people for <job> is to PAY MORE MONEY. Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand? I agree with you that companies have taken advantage of employees for a very long time and am glad that workers are pushing back on low wages and unreasonable employment situations. But if we keep requiring more credentialing at high expense that people simply cannot afford without crippling loans, you can't fix that with higher wages. The result would be that teeth cleaning would become unaffordable to the average person. Oh wait, I know the solution to that: more insurance! (See: medical care)