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43% of the vote in democratic primaries is quite popular. And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his suppor

43% of the vote in democratic primaries is quite popular. And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his supporters were derided as mostly white male "Bernie Bros". Sounds like exactly what GP was talking about: steering conversations to race and sex to avoid talking about economic inequality.

deleted 4y ago
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rayiner 4y ago
> And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his supporters were derided as mostly white male "Bernie Bros". And the abiding irony of that was that most of the people who did that supported Elizabeth Warren, who had vanishingly little support from actual minorities. She finished behind Tom Steyer in South Carolina and behind Mayor Pete in Nevada (states where the democratic base is heavily black and hispanic, respectively). Even the New York Times acknowledged that Warren's campaign was a "demographic cul-de-sac" dominated by "college-educated white people." And those people had the gall to paint Bernie--who has invested enormous time and energy in reaching out to Hispanics and did well among that group--as racist.
- tptacek 4y ago
  All that aside, it seems like the original point being made was roughly that Occupy and Bernie were popular causes among young and online people, but not among the broader electorate. And that's basically true, right?
  - leereeves 4y ago
    It seems to me that 43% support among Democrat primary voters is fairly broad, but I guess that's just a debate about semantics. I would argue, however, that he faced tremendous opposition from the wealthy, and that translated into most corporate media either attacking him or ignoring him, so his supporters could only be heard on social media.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Look at the Michigan county-by-county primary results (better yet: compare 2020 to 2016) and tell me that Democratic Socialism is a viable position in the modern Democratic party. Sanders didn't even take Washtenaw this go-round. I think it's very likely that Sanders overperformance in 2016 was really an artifact for a lot of deep-seated dislike and distrust of Hillary Clinton (something Biden himself was reported sour about in the wake of the 2016 fiasco). Corporate opposition is a just-so story. Until his campaign fell apart, Sanders stomped Biden in earned media coverage.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I would say Sanders is popular, and not just among "online people." He won Nevada, including a decisive victory among Hispanics. The state as a whole is a working class state, and Hispanics there especially so. While he's not more popular than Biden, but he represents the only other "lane" in the Democratic Party that has meaningful purchase with actual voters, especially "not online" voters. And of course, let's not forget that anti-Wall Street, anti-corporate sentiment is emergent on the right as well--especially among persuadable voters and independents. What isn't popular among voters, by contrast, is the woke managerialism lane Warren has come to represent. That's significant both because it points to how the party should recalibrate its message, and also because of its implications for the party's management structure (where the woke managerialists have outsize power). I suspect Democrats' reshuffling of the primaries will significantly ameliorate both problems.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I may have gotten myself in trouble here implying that Sanders is unpopular; he's not. He's just not viable. You can't win the Democratic nomination without the Black vote, and, for whatever reason, Sanders just wasn't able to connect there. It's academic now, of course; Sanders isn't going to run again. I'm not a Warren fan either. I'm the weirdo in this conversation who was actually rooting for Biden.
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        See my comment above.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Sanders fell apart among black voters in the south for a very good reason — he talked down to them as if he was the first person to think that talking to them about Socialism was a good idea, as if Paul Robeson or Bayard Rustin never existed. One of my (white) college classmates who was very heavily involved as a campaign worker for him told me, “Who are those people?” I said “Don’t look at me, it’s your campaign.” That being said he was probably the only person who could’ve stopped the union workers in Ohio from flipping to Trump.
latency-guy2 4y ago
Sure, 43% seems popular. Until you compare it to 55%. > And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his supporters were derided as mostly white male "Bernie Bros". Really? I thought "Bernie Bros" were deemed the 'working class' as proclaimed by Bernie style 'Socialists' that model their economic ideals based on a fictional EU. This seems like it's rewriting history. > Sounds like exactly what GP was talking about: steering conversations to race and sex to avoid talking about economic inequality. Sure, which is what you did, on your own, through your own comment, I talked about popularity, you're in some weird area where you are vaguely on the same topic as I am but pretending like it is towards the point. Bernie had no shot. Both times. If he runs again in 2024, which will be hilarious if he does, it will simply be to raise money for the DNC, just like he did the last 2 times. No refunds. Look at that, did not mention a single demographic other than 'he' in these short 2 sentences, maybe you're onto something with 'Bernie Bros'.
- leereeves 4y ago
  > Really? I thought "Bernie Bros" were deemed the 'working class' as proclaimed by Bernie style 'Socialists' that model their economic ideals based on a fictional EU. This seems like it's rewriting history. "Robinson Meyer, a writer for The Atlantic, coined the term Bernie bro in an October 17, 2015 article to describe young, white, progressive men who, in his view, support unrealistic progressive policies" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bro And if you think this is all off topic, you must have missed this quote from the root of this thread: > U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. IOW, steering conversations to race to avoid talking about class and economic inequality.

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rayiner 4y ago

> And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his supporters were derided as mostly white male "Bernie Bros". And the abiding irony of that was that most of the people who did that supported Elizabeth Warren, who had vanishingly little support from actual minorities. She finished behind Tom Steyer in South Carolina and behind Mayor Pete in Nevada (states where the democratic base is heavily black and hispanic, respectively). Even the New York Times acknowledged that Warren's campaign was a "demographic cul-de-sac" dominated by "college-educated white people." And those people had the gall to paint Bernie--who has invested enormous time and energy in reaching out to Hispanics and did well among that group--as racist.

tptacek 4y ago
All that aside, it seems like the original point being made was roughly that Occupy and Bernie were popular causes among young and online people, but not among the broader electorate. And that's basically true, right?
- leereeves 4y ago
  It seems to me that 43% support among Democrat primary voters is fairly broad, but I guess that's just a debate about semantics. I would argue, however, that he faced tremendous opposition from the wealthy, and that translated into most corporate media either attacking him or ignoring him, so his supporters could only be heard on social media.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Look at the Michigan county-by-county primary results (better yet: compare 2020 to 2016) and tell me that Democratic Socialism is a viable position in the modern Democratic party. Sanders didn't even take Washtenaw this go-round. I think it's very likely that Sanders overperformance in 2016 was really an artifact for a lot of deep-seated dislike and distrust of Hillary Clinton (something Biden himself was reported sour about in the wake of the 2016 fiasco). Corporate opposition is a just-so story. Until his campaign fell apart, Sanders stomped Biden in earned media coverage.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I would say Sanders is popular, and not just among "online people." He won Nevada, including a decisive victory among Hispanics. The state as a whole is a working class state, and Hispanics there especially so. While he's not more popular than Biden, but he represents the only other "lane" in the Democratic Party that has meaningful purchase with actual voters, especially "not online" voters. And of course, let's not forget that anti-Wall Street, anti-corporate sentiment is emergent on the right as well--especially among persuadable voters and independents. What isn't popular among voters, by contrast, is the woke managerialism lane Warren has come to represent. That's significant both because it points to how the party should recalibrate its message, and also because of its implications for the party's management structure (where the woke managerialists have outsize power). I suspect Democrats' reshuffling of the primaries will significantly ameliorate both problems.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I may have gotten myself in trouble here implying that Sanders is unpopular; he's not. He's just not viable. You can't win the Democratic nomination without the Black vote, and, for whatever reason, Sanders just wasn't able to connect there. It's academic now, of course; Sanders isn't going to run again. I'm not a Warren fan either. I'm the weirdo in this conversation who was actually rooting for Biden.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      See my comment above.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    Sanders fell apart among black voters in the south for a very good reason — he talked down to them as if he was the first person to think that talking to them about Socialism was a good idea, as if Paul Robeson or Bayard Rustin never existed. One of my (white) college classmates who was very heavily involved as a campaign worker for him told me, “Who are those people?” I said “Don’t look at me, it’s your campaign.” That being said he was probably the only person who could’ve stopped the union workers in Ohio from flipping to Trump.

latency-guy2 4y ago

Sure, 43% seems popular. Until you compare it to 55%. > And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his supporters were derided as mostly white male "Bernie Bros". Really? I thought "Bernie Bros" were deemed the 'working class' as proclaimed by Bernie style 'Socialists' that model their economic ideals based on a fictional EU. This seems like it's rewriting history. > Sounds like exactly what GP was talking about: steering conversations to race and sex to avoid talking about economic inequality. Sure, which is what you did, on your own, through your own comment, I talked about popularity, you're in some weird area where you are vaguely on the same topic as I am but pretending like it is towards the point. Bernie had no shot. Both times. If he runs again in 2024, which will be hilarious if he does, it will simply be to raise money for the DNC, just like he did the last 2 times. No refunds. Look at that, did not mention a single demographic other than 'he' in these short 2 sentences, maybe you're onto something with 'Bernie Bros'.

leereeves 4y ago
> Really? I thought "Bernie Bros" were deemed the 'working class' as proclaimed by Bernie style 'Socialists' that model their economic ideals based on a fictional EU. This seems like it's rewriting history. "Robinson Meyer, a writer for The Atlantic, coined the term Bernie bro in an October 17, 2015 article to describe young, white, progressive men who, in his view, support unrealistic progressive policies" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bro And if you think this is all off topic, you must have missed this quote from the root of this thread: > U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. IOW, steering conversations to race to avoid talking about class and economic inequality.