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You didn’t address the comment you’re responding to. You won’t have students who are good at math and language skills. You’ll have students who are good at taki

You didn’t address the comment you’re responding to. You won’t have students who are good at math and language skills. You’ll have students who are good at taking math and language skills standardized tests. Being good at math and being good at taking a math standardized test is two different things. A student can excel at math but be terrible at taking tests for many reasons. You’ll have bright students falling through the cracks if this was the only consideration for admission.

janalsncm 4y ago
How do you know that this hypothetical student “excels” at math if their performance can’t be measured? Students can and are already given reasonable accommodations. Sure tests may be imperfect but I am highly skeptical of any claim that math test performance and academic math performance are not highly correlated.
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  At the levels we’re talking about, the difference between “perfect score” and “still excellent but imperfect score” can be down to one or two errors on the test, basically noise. Given the number of applicants and the willingness to drill testing skills, going by scores would eliminate anyone who makes a minor error. The ability to perform perfectly in high-stress situations is a useful (and learnable) skill - like the ability to win quiz games, or perform classical music at concert level - but it is not the same thing as academic potential. (As an aside: as an advisor of PhD students in computer science, I sometimes have to train students out of these habits. Research doesn’t happen if you’re used to getting the shallow answer more quickly, or if you’re afraid to be wrong.)
  - janalsncm 4y ago
    Yes, and that’s one of the reasons why tests are imperfect. That doesn’t mean that introducing any additional variables is warranted, especially given their associated noise. GPA is garbage, for example, which is why I ignore it on resumes. If the test has unacceptably high variance as you mentioned, the solution is to make the test longer not discount it.
    - matthewdgreen 4y ago
      I see no evidence that making tests longer will optimize for the variables that matter in academic performance (which are not 1-dimensional anyway) as opposed to simply optimizing for people who have poured resources into test preparation. You seem to be coming from the perspective that testing must be the best metric, and then trying to develop a methodology based on that assumption. Purely as a thought exercise: it might be helpful to start from the assumption that testing isn’t an option, and think about what you might do instead.
deleted 4y ago
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janalsncm 4y ago

How do you know that this hypothetical student “excels” at math if their performance can’t be measured? Students can and are already given reasonable accommodations. Sure tests may be imperfect but I am highly skeptical of any claim that math test performance and academic math performance are not highly correlated.

matthewdgreen 4y ago
At the levels we’re talking about, the difference between “perfect score” and “still excellent but imperfect score” can be down to one or two errors on the test, basically noise. Given the number of applicants and the willingness to drill testing skills, going by scores would eliminate anyone who makes a minor error. The ability to perform perfectly in high-stress situations is a useful (and learnable) skill - like the ability to win quiz games, or perform classical music at concert level - but it is not the same thing as academic potential. (As an aside: as an advisor of PhD students in computer science, I sometimes have to train students out of these habits. Research doesn’t happen if you’re used to getting the shallow answer more quickly, or if you’re afraid to be wrong.)
- janalsncm 4y ago
  Yes, and that’s one of the reasons why tests are imperfect. That doesn’t mean that introducing any additional variables is warranted, especially given their associated noise. GPA is garbage, for example, which is why I ignore it on resumes. If the test has unacceptably high variance as you mentioned, the solution is to make the test longer not discount it.
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    I see no evidence that making tests longer will optimize for the variables that matter in academic performance (which are not 1-dimensional anyway) as opposed to simply optimizing for people who have poured resources into test preparation. You seem to be coming from the perspective that testing must be the best metric, and then trying to develop a methodology based on that assumption. Purely as a thought exercise: it might be helpful to start from the assumption that testing isn’t an option, and think about what you might do instead.

deleted 4y ago

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