4 ms·

> The researchers found spices such as nutmeg, cloves, mustard and dill. They also found samples of other plant material, such as saffron and ginger, peppercorn

by graphe 4y ago

> The researchers found spices such as nutmeg, cloves, mustard and dill. They also found samples of other plant material, such as saffron and ginger, peppercorns and almonds. Some of the spices would have come from as far away as Indonesia, suggesting that King Hans had developed an advanced trade network. The researchers also found snack items, such as dried blackberries, raspberries, grapes and flax, each find showing just how rich and powerful Hans had become. The researchers also found one non-edible plant, henbane, which, in the past, was used for medicinal purposes. Can we determine where the spices came from? Did he trade with the Mughal empire or an agent of theirs? All of them sound South Asian, except I don't know where almonds came from.

fakedang 4y ago
15th century, 1400s, Muvhal Empire did not exist. It's possible there was centuries-long trade between Vikings and Arabs that stopped at the Horn of Africa, because Arabs kept the route to India, Malacca and the Moluccas a mostly well-guarded secret against Europeans. That being said, it's possible for the Scandinavians to have indirectly acquired these spices from the Arabs, because the Arabs certainly resold a lot of them from the Vijayanagara Empire and the Srivijiya Sultanate (both which existed around that time). But the lack of any outposts or major presence like the Arabs did, means that the Europeans did not have direct access to Greater Asia (India, China, SEA) until the Portuguese opened up the routes. As you can expect, the number of middlemen involved meant that the prices commanded by these goods was extremely high. Edit:- Denmark had an outpost in Tuticorin (Southern India) much later though
- graphe 4y ago
  Thanks, I mixed up my centuries. It's very impressive how far these spices went. Pre Mughal India is very interesting, I listened to a podcast about the Vijayanagara empire on fall of civilizations.
- WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  I can easily imagine a trade route from the Kara sea, southbound rivers (Yenisei, Angara and alike?) into the Baikal sea...
  - fakedang 4y ago
    Sounds good, doesn't work. /s Honestly, in those days, a trip from Stockholm to Malacca in those days would have been much faster than a trip from the Kara sea through Siberia. Not to mention, much safer - you don't have to worry about nomadic raiders stealing your goods (which was a very significant concern in the Silk Road overland route vis a vis the Spice Route).
fbdab103 4y ago
I am also curious if it is possible to determine if the spices were pure (given technology/cultivation constraints of the day). Seems like there would be an enormous incentive to dilute the product as much as possible when the buyer likely has very limited opportunity to contrast quality.
- culi 4y ago
  I have trouble imagining how you would "dilute" something like flaxseeds or nutmegs (the seeds are the size of a small egg). Do you make fake seeds that look the same and just mix them in with the other seeds?
  - fbdab103 4y ago
    I was thinking more along the lines of something like salt to which you could theoretically add an adulterant. Now what that would be without making the end result unpalatable is beyond my knowledge, but with the right financial incentives, I assumed someone could identify something.
    - culi 4y ago
      Maybe but > nutmeg, cloves, mustard and dill. None of these were common as some sort of powder back then (nor today except nutmeg). All would be extremely difficult to fake
  - tullianus 4y ago
    Counterfeit nutmegs (made of wood) were at minimum widely feared at some points in history: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/94734/why-early-america-was-obsessed-wooden-nutmegs https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/94734/why-early-america-...
- crazygringo 4y ago
  I can't imagine spices were ever shipped powdered, as you may be imagining from the supermarket. They would be shipped as whole plant parts but dried. You'd powder or grate right before using. If they were powdered before shipping they'd lose so much flavor and potency along the way.
paganel 4y ago
Most probably via the Mediterranean, this being 1495 that meant Venice, with some chances of the Southern French doing the transport itself across some part of Mediterranean as the Venetians were already beginning to not be that much interested in sailing. The Venetians themselves were purchasing the spices either from Alexandria or from Beirut. There's a 1963 presentation by Ruggiero Romano, Alberto Tenenti and Ugo Tucci called Venise et la Route du Cap: 1499-1517, which has this table [1] of imports of spices in the Mediterranean Sea and Southern Europe going from the late 1490s to the early 1500s. One can see that the Portuguese only started bringing spices in Europe in 1501, and they started rivalling the Venetians in terms of quantities in 1503. [1] https://imgur.com/a/5bVsi6m https://imgur.com/a/5bVsi6m
pvaldes 4y ago
> The researchers also found snack items, such as dried blackberries, raspberries, grapes and flax Some can be snacks but its main purpose could be very different. Flax seeds are tiny and really not so valuable as snack, but you can powder them and obtain a very fine oil to use in lamps. In a six month dark winter or in a ship this can be more than a luxury. You could also save them for culturing at home and obtain a source of fine and durable clothes. Almond oil can be used in skin care to alleviate the effect of the cold in the face. Can be used also in candles. Flax oil can be used also in another very important thing in a wooden ship, to protect the wood and made it shiny, more durable and waterproof. Henbane is the outlier but could be used externally and its purpose in navigation is fascinating. Rare in the North but can be found in central and southern Europe if you know what to look for. Is not a creature that you should underestimate or play with but Vikings really don't need to navigate a lot to find it. The dried berries are all European crops. Maybe their purpose was to acquire valuable varieties of crops. May be used also to dye clothes.

by graphe 4y ago

fakedang 4y ago

15th century, 1400s, Muvhal Empire did not exist. It's possible there was centuries-long trade between Vikings and Arabs that stopped at the Horn of Africa, because Arabs kept the route to India, Malacca and the Moluccas a mostly well-guarded secret against Europeans. That being said, it's possible for the Scandinavians to have indirectly acquired these spices from the Arabs, because the Arabs certainly resold a lot of them from the Vijayanagara Empire and the Srivijiya Sultanate (both which existed around that time). But the lack of any outposts or major presence like the Arabs did, means that the Europeans did not have direct access to Greater Asia (India, China, SEA) until the Portuguese opened up the routes. As you can expect, the number of middlemen involved meant that the prices commanded by these goods was extremely high. Edit:- Denmark had an outpost in Tuticorin (Southern India) much later though

graphe 4y ago
Thanks, I mixed up my centuries. It's very impressive how far these spices went. Pre Mughal India is very interesting, I listened to a podcast about the Vijayanagara empire on fall of civilizations.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
I can easily imagine a trade route from the Kara sea, southbound rivers (Yenisei, Angara and alike?) into the Baikal sea...
- fakedang 4y ago
  Sounds good, doesn't work. /s Honestly, in those days, a trip from Stockholm to Malacca in those days would have been much faster than a trip from the Kara sea through Siberia. Not to mention, much safer - you don't have to worry about nomadic raiders stealing your goods (which was a very significant concern in the Silk Road overland route vis a vis the Spice Route).

fbdab103 4y ago

I am also curious if it is possible to determine if the spices were pure (given technology/cultivation constraints of the day). Seems like there would be an enormous incentive to dilute the product as much as possible when the buyer likely has very limited opportunity to contrast quality.

culi 4y ago
I have trouble imagining how you would "dilute" something like flaxseeds or nutmegs (the seeds are the size of a small egg). Do you make fake seeds that look the same and just mix them in with the other seeds?
- fbdab103 4y ago
  I was thinking more along the lines of something like salt to which you could theoretically add an adulterant. Now what that would be without making the end result unpalatable is beyond my knowledge, but with the right financial incentives, I assumed someone could identify something.
  - culi 4y ago
    Maybe but > nutmeg, cloves, mustard and dill. None of these were common as some sort of powder back then (nor today except nutmeg). All would be extremely difficult to fake
- tullianus 4y ago
  Counterfeit nutmegs (made of wood) were at minimum widely feared at some points in history: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/94734/why-early-america-was-obsessed-wooden-nutmegs https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/94734/why-early-america-...
crazygringo 4y ago
I can't imagine spices were ever shipped powdered, as you may be imagining from the supermarket. They would be shipped as whole plant parts but dried. You'd powder or grate right before using. If they were powdered before shipping they'd lose so much flavor and potency along the way.

paganel 4y ago

Most probably via the Mediterranean, this being 1495 that meant Venice, with some chances of the Southern French doing the transport itself across some part of Mediterranean as the Venetians were already beginning to not be that much interested in sailing. The Venetians themselves were purchasing the spices either from Alexandria or from Beirut. There's a 1963 presentation by Ruggiero Romano, Alberto Tenenti and Ugo Tucci called Venise et la Route du Cap: 1499-1517, which has this table [1] of imports of spices in the Mediterranean Sea and Southern Europe going from the late 1490s to the early 1500s. One can see that the Portuguese only started bringing spices in Europe in 1501, and they started rivalling the Venetians in terms of quantities in 1503. [1] https://imgur.com/a/5bVsi6m https://imgur.com/a/5bVsi6m

pvaldes 4y ago

> The researchers also found snack items, such as dried blackberries, raspberries, grapes and flax Some can be snacks but its main purpose could be very different. Flax seeds are tiny and really not so valuable as snack, but you can powder them and obtain a very fine oil to use in lamps. In a six month dark winter or in a ship this can be more than a luxury. You could also save them for culturing at home and obtain a source of fine and durable clothes. Almond oil can be used in skin care to alleviate the effect of the cold in the face. Can be used also in candles. Flax oil can be used also in another very important thing in a wooden ship, to protect the wood and made it shiny, more durable and waterproof. Henbane is the outlier but could be used externally and its purpose in navigation is fascinating. Rare in the North but can be found in central and southern Europe if you know what to look for. Is not a creature that you should underestimate or play with but Vikings really don't need to navigate a lot to find it. The dried berries are all European crops. Maybe their purpose was to acquire valuable varieties of crops. May be used also to dye clothes.