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We have this notion of historic times that people largely stayed in place. We find evidence repeatedly that this just isn't the case. A good example is the spr

by cletus 4y ago

We have this notion of historic times that people largely stayed in place. We find evidence repeatedly that this just isn't the case. A good example is the spread of wheat cultivation across Europe. We can get fairly accurate reads on this because of DNA sequencing of wheat and it was a new crop. There is cultivated wheat at the bottom of the English Channel, meaning it was farmed there before the English Chanel was flooded by the North American ice sheet melting. Another example is the from the Bronze Age (>3300 years ago). There was a vast trade network at this time that we have direct evidence for [1], being a ship carrying goods from all across the known world from modern day Afghanistan to Europe. The Bronze Age spectacularly and suddenly ended, which is a whole other story. It's still speculated as to what caused this. One interesting aspect are the so caled "Sea Peoples", that were directly documented (and drawn) by the Egyptians at the time. There's speculation that the "Sea Peoples" themselves were refugees from some other disaster. This too hints at great mobility that so many people could migrate so far. Trade and human movement in historic times was way more extensive and common than you might otherwise assume. [1]: https://medium.com/teatime-history/bronze-age-shipwreck-reveals-the-luxurious-lifestyles-of-the-ancient-elite-42f880855c57 https://medium.com/teatime-history/bronze-age-shipwreck-reve...

graphe 4y ago
It is the case for most of the settled people and civilizations. Just because a few traders, monguls and sea peoples exist doesn't mean most people don't live and die within a few miles of their birthplaces. This is even true today. A few north Korean traders does not make north Korean people an international trading culture.
- tomrod 4y ago
  > international trading culture. It kind of does, just that the people themselves aren't terribly mobile. Trade is goods and capital, not people.
  - graphe 4y ago
    If the hangul emperor married a perisan princess and got Persian goods, it doesn't change the status or the lives of average people. On the Indian subcontinent traders had participation from all walks of life so I'd call it way more culturally international. I'd argue royalty getting preferential treatment isn't culturally relevant for a people.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Those would probably be thought of as gifts, rather than trade. We see even in neolithic times that people ranged far with trade goods and community, such as sites like Göbekli Tepe.
- Fezzik 4y ago
  To bolster this point: even today less than half the world population has flown on an airplane.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Assuming than implies "somewhere between 45-50%", that's higher than I would have thought. But a much higher percentage would have traveled 100s if not 1000kms over land surely.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    They’re the smart ones
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      The vast majority didn't have a choice, sir. Ever been to a really poor country? Even Moldova will do, you don't have to go to Niger. But people from poor countries actually do travel a lot, as gastarbeiters, to send remittance back to their families. They do so using buses, though. Lots and lots of buses.
      - tomcam 4y ago
        Joke, sir
appletrotter 4y ago
> We have this notion of historic times that people largely stayed in place. Good rhetorical technique, I’m sure a lot of people have a relatively ‘naive’ preconception about such things - but I also think a lot of people do have an understanding that these kinds of things were possible as it is.
VoodooJuJu 4y ago
Who is "we"?
wizofaus 4y ago
None of that debunks the reasonable assumption that a random individual from any previous century, particularly those before there were widely available means of travel other than walking and perhaps horseback, would have moved around a lot less in their lifetime than one from today. Further, I just recently watched a video of essentially an animated map showing the spread of humanity and human civilization across the globe compressed into 19 minutes, and even if you only consider "history" as beginning around 2000 BC it really did take an awful long time for trading populations to spread out from the near east+Egypt region to the rest of the world, first gradually taking in most of modern day Europe and then with a massive acceleration starting sometime around the 1600s that led to our modern idea of a world where almost no matter where you're born, you have a reasonable chance of being able to travel to another country, and of course for those of us in the developed world, a decent chance of travelling around the globe multiple times within a single lifetime. Even just 100 years ago that privilege would have been restricted to the very few.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > those of us in the developed world, a decent chance of travelling around the globe multiple times within a single lifetime. Even just 100 years ago that privilege would have been restricted to the very few I think you’re forgetting how expensive international airfare was even in the 1980s. Traveling around the world multiple times in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s would have been very expensive compared to today (note: I’m considering airfare only, not accommodations)
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Our family was basically middle class growing up but we traveled to Europe (from Australia) twice within a few years, both times in the 80s. But sure, you don't have to go a full 100 years back for that sort of luxury to be a rare thing even in wealthy countries - still, there were quite a few that made one-time journeys across half the globe at least, and many of us today have parents and even multiple grandparents that did just that of course.
    - 4y ago
biorach 4y ago
> There is cultivated wheat at the bottom of the English Channel, meaning it was farmed there before the English Chanel was flooded by the North American ice sheet melting. Citation? I'm no expert but I had thought that the introduction of farming to the region post-dated the inundation of the channel by millennia.

by cletus 4y ago

graphe 4y ago

It is the case for most of the settled people and civilizations. Just because a few traders, monguls and sea peoples exist doesn't mean most people don't live and die within a few miles of their birthplaces. This is even true today. A few north Korean traders does not make north Korean people an international trading culture.

tomrod 4y ago
> international trading culture. It kind of does, just that the people themselves aren't terribly mobile. Trade is goods and capital, not people.
- graphe 4y ago
  If the hangul emperor married a perisan princess and got Persian goods, it doesn't change the status or the lives of average people. On the Indian subcontinent traders had participation from all walks of life so I'd call it way more culturally international. I'd argue royalty getting preferential treatment isn't culturally relevant for a people.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Those would probably be thought of as gifts, rather than trade. We see even in neolithic times that people ranged far with trade goods and community, such as sites like Göbekli Tepe.
Fezzik 4y ago
To bolster this point: even today less than half the world population has flown on an airplane.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Assuming than implies "somewhere between 45-50%", that's higher than I would have thought. But a much higher percentage would have traveled 100s if not 1000kms over land surely.
- tomcam 4y ago
  They’re the smart ones
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    The vast majority didn't have a choice, sir. Ever been to a really poor country? Even Moldova will do, you don't have to go to Niger. But people from poor countries actually do travel a lot, as gastarbeiters, to send remittance back to their families. They do so using buses, though. Lots and lots of buses.
    - tomcam 4y ago
      Joke, sir

appletrotter 4y ago

> We have this notion of historic times that people largely stayed in place. Good rhetorical technique, I’m sure a lot of people have a relatively ‘naive’ preconception about such things - but I also think a lot of people do have an understanding that these kinds of things were possible as it is.

VoodooJuJu 4y ago

Who is "we"?

wizofaus 4y ago

None of that debunks the reasonable assumption that a random individual from any previous century, particularly those before there were widely available means of travel other than walking and perhaps horseback, would have moved around a lot less in their lifetime than one from today. Further, I just recently watched a video of essentially an animated map showing the spread of humanity and human civilization across the globe compressed into 19 minutes, and even if you only consider "history" as beginning around 2000 BC it really did take an awful long time for trading populations to spread out from the near east+Egypt region to the rest of the world, first gradually taking in most of modern day Europe and then with a massive acceleration starting sometime around the 1600s that led to our modern idea of a world where almost no matter where you're born, you have a reasonable chance of being able to travel to another country, and of course for those of us in the developed world, a decent chance of travelling around the globe multiple times within a single lifetime. Even just 100 years ago that privilege would have been restricted to the very few.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> those of us in the developed world, a decent chance of travelling around the globe multiple times within a single lifetime. Even just 100 years ago that privilege would have been restricted to the very few I think you’re forgetting how expensive international airfare was even in the 1980s. Traveling around the world multiple times in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s would have been very expensive compared to today (note: I’m considering airfare only, not accommodations)
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Our family was basically middle class growing up but we traveled to Europe (from Australia) twice within a few years, both times in the 80s. But sure, you don't have to go a full 100 years back for that sort of luxury to be a rare thing even in wealthy countries - still, there were quite a few that made one-time journeys across half the globe at least, and many of us today have parents and even multiple grandparents that did just that of course.
  - 4y ago

biorach 4y ago

> There is cultivated wheat at the bottom of the English Channel, meaning it was farmed there before the English Chanel was flooded by the North American ice sheet melting. Citation? I'm no expert but I had thought that the introduction of farming to the region post-dated the inundation of the channel by millennia.