7 ms·

An antidote to envy

79 points by herbertl 4y ago

yazzku 4y ago
Envy can be a positive and healthy force. E.g., I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. That gives me reason to learn more and progress. I think what the article refers to "envy" is a complete lack of self-esteem. Envy is healthy when you acknowledge your limitations. > But envy is one of the most pervasive problems in today’s world, especially as social media normalizes the successes of others, making you feel like you’re “underperforming” the average when in reality you’re being shown a highlight reel of outliers. This isn't really "envy", or not on its own.
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > Envy can be a positive and healthy force. E.g., I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. That gives me reason to learn more and progress. My understanding of the word is borne out by the formal definition, e.g., in Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/envy https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/envy): “Resentful desire of something possessed by another or others (but not limited to material possessions).” That ‘resentful’ part is key to why I think that envy is (almost?) always negative. It is good to work with people whose skills you admire; if you envy their skills then you not only want to have those skills yourself, but resent that they have them.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - yazzku 4y ago
    Ok, that was a polite way of saying "English, motherfucker!"
  - karmakaze 4y ago
    I'm not good at emotions and can really only recognize about 3 or 4 in myself. I do try to understand what value each emotion can have, on the presumption that if it had no value, it ought not to continue existing. Envy is the hardest one for me to find value in. At best it can be a kind of competitive motivating factor. That's all I've got. I think I avoid envy by first believing that 'I' could have been anyone on the planet, but just happened to be 'me'. Given that as a starting point, do the most with what you have. Even then I don't do near close to the max, so I'm not in any position to complain or desire beyond my means which I haven't realized.
    - jamiek88 4y ago
      >Even then I don't do near close to the max, so I'm not in any position to complain or desire beyond my means which I haven't realized. Interesting perspective, i like that a lot. How can I begrudge others things when I haven’t even maximized my own capability and or circumstances in life?
- m463 4y ago
  sounds like admire not envy
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. I want to be around people who have skills and qualities I would like to learn. I can't honestly say I envy any of them, though.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Though noting your other comment below, envy is less about wanting something for oneself as wanting exclusive possession of it - not 'I wish to have that too' but 'that should be mine, not yours.'
- mrg3_2013 4y ago
  You are "technically" right about the definition of envy - but I think OP is using envy to indicate "wanting something that you feel you deserve". Sometimes you feel you deserved more. Sometimes you feel others deserved less.
renewiltord 4y ago
The antidote to envy is to invest in your friends' startups.
aschearer 4y ago
Cultivate gratitude for what you have, joy for what others have, and an appreciation that what's here one day may be gone the next. Easier said then done. PS the juxtaposition of "wisdom" with "subscribe for new posts and become a member" is amusing. Want enlightment? Then make sure to smash that subscribe button! Why not just share your wisdom without all those trappings?
paulpauper 4y ago
But envy is one of the most pervasive problems in today’s world, especially as social media normalizes the successes of others, making you feel like you’re “underperforming” the average when in reality you’re being shown a highlight reel of outliers. You’re always comparing yourself to someone ahead of you, and the goalpost will keep moving because the algorithm ensures that it moves on your behalf. And whenever a hierarchy like this exists, the fingers of envy creep within. People say this like it's a truism, but the notion that social media only shows successful people or is like a highlight reel of life, is possibly false. Unless your social circle is limited to tech founders or celebrities, most people live pretty mundane lives. https://greyenlightenment.com/2022/04/27/still-skeptical-about-the-link-between-social-media-and-envy/ https://greyenlightenment.com/2022/04/27/still-skeptical-abo... I don't see what is wrong with envy per say. What is wrong with wanting more. Envy is a major motivating or driving force of getting better at life.
- throwaquestion5 4y ago
  > People say this like it's a truism, but the notion that social media only shows successful people or is like a highlight reel of life, is possibly false. Unless your social circle is limited to tech founders or celebrities, most people live pretty mundane lives. The article is missing the whole point of envy. Envy manifest for those around you that have it better than you. The coworker that started with you and ended up climbing positions faster and has a better salary. The photos of the weeding of an old crush. Is about someone being an step up and the what-ifs that would have made it so you had that now. If you are start up founder yes, it makes sense being envious if you went in a round and someone got the investment you wanted; or an acquaintance is already retiring while you are still iterating on your 5th failure business. Envy adjust to the grandeur delusions people have. Tech founders and celebrities may be yours, but for most people those around them that have it better.
lnsru 4y ago
I lost envy emotion long time ago. It was there, but I know the guys I were envy to too good. Successful founders had immense wealth transfer behind the scenes from their parents. Or introduction to wealthy individuals in their social bubble. The good grade students were not gifted geniuses, but parents were able to cover all studying costs and these guys had time for learning. All these stories, that should make me envy, well.. they all have some behind the scenes hidden support component. I am perfectly fine with myself, thanks, no antidotes needed.
- mrg3_2013 4y ago
  Congrats if you have plucked envy out of you! How do you avoid being envious of "legit" individuals (i.e those who achieved greater success coming from far adverse situations) ?
  - masterof0 4y ago
    Those "legit" individuals are so rare, that instead of feeling envy, I just feel curiosity, and the desire to learn from them. But so far, I don't know of anyone. I'm sure there are a few, but I haven't met anyone in person that deserves the "legit" label.
  - shigawire 4y ago
    I'm a different guy but if someone is really better or worked harder or had better luck... There's not much I can do about it so it's whatever. I think this level of laziness and lack of ambition is out of place on this board, but common in the general public.
    - masterof0 4y ago
      True. Something I learn when I came years ago to the US, is you don't have to be awesome at anything, being normal, working hard and keeping in mind principles like "spend less than what you make" already put you above 90% of people. Most folks are lazy out there in the real world. You don't need to grind super hard.
  - 4y ago
atemerev 4y ago
> Whatever I am, that I want to understand. Well I understand that I am a failure at life. That doesn't help much.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  That sounds a bit like a cognitive distortion. What makes you say that? If it's actually true, the self-awareness is a good step to making some changes. I also caution that "not being successful in a rigged economic system" is not equal to failing at life.
mrg3_2013 4y ago
It's a great post. Envy needs to be demolished for peace. Some of the response alludes to using envy as a tool to make progress. But it is a flawed concept as one never achieves a peaceful mind (dog chasing cars one after another). I suppose it all boils down to what one wants out of life (i.e looking inward). If constant chase is the goal, envy is great.
jdmoreira 4y ago
Even today I was thinking about envy and that I might be envious towards a specific person in my circle. This person owns and operates a lifestyle business that is currently on auto-pilot and they have a lot of freedom, low stress, a seemingly endless stream of incoming capital and total control of their time. I don't resent this person of course but in a way I am envious, yes. I know I have it in me to grind into building such a business for myself but the circumstances of my family make it so I'm the sole provider and I have a full-time high stakes job. Like Charlie Munger said, "What good is envy? It’s the one sin you can’t have any fun at." but he also said... "Like Warren, I had a considerable passion to get rich, not because I wanted Ferraris – I wanted the independence. I desperately wanted it." and so I'm envious. As I'm sure he was once.
- smackeyacky 4y ago
  If you take a bit of time to be honest about what you really need (rather than what you want, or what you think others want of you) you can drastically scale back your lifestyle and get close to that independence. The extreme version of course is becoming homeless. At which point we find out that true independence simply isn't available. As old Bob Dylan said, you gotta serve somebody.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - m3kw9 4y ago
    Most cannot scale back easily as usually they brought a house matching their income potential. The key is scaling down your daily/monthly goods that isn’t housing and don’t scale up housing
    - jmathai 4y ago
      I’ve been deep in this for about 5 years. A couple of thoughts and anecdotes that may apply. * You can probably trim your budget by 20%. I’ve talked with a couple folks who do this just by switching from a credit card to a debit card. Screw the rewards. * Budgeting is the only way. It’s not near as terrible as people think. Just cut crap you won’t miss not having anyway. Be very disciplined. * Track net worth and savings rate. There are lots of tools for this. I made https://fiers.co https://fiers.co for myself - others use it too :). Personal capital is great if you are okay giving access to financial data. * Avoid debt like the plague. Mortgages are okay but the bigger it is the longer you’ll be tied to a particular income. * The value of time increases as you get older with a sharp uptick around 40. Given it takes 10-15 years of diligence to decouple your lifestyle and income - get started in your early 30s. * It will take 10-15 years before you have financial independence. This doesn’t mean you will quit your job…but it does mean you have the freedom to do things that like that which aren’t so tied to you earning income to meet your goals. * Shortcuts will just distract you and make your journey take longer.
fzeindl 4y ago
Envy is one of the most useless thoughts/emotions there is, it serves no purpose at all. But there's a good sentence for dealing with it, if you are envious of somebody else having something you can tell yourself: "I have something he doesn't have. I have _enough_."
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  It is supposed to motivate you to better yourself, sadly most people just use it to explode the envied person's head in their immagination. That, or they join a political ideology well suited for weight-loss.
- itake 4y ago
  For me, envy motivates me and defines what is possible. Envy is not an enjoyable motion, but it pushes me out of my comfort zone and to achieve more than I am.
kayo_20211030 4y ago
Another personal "observation" of banal bollocks trying to pass as wisdom. How long before the TED talk audience has to suffer through 15 minutes of this?
- mrg3_2013 4y ago
  envy unlocked :)
SPBS 4y ago
This sentence stood out to me: > In my case, writing these kinds of essays is my way of understanding myself. I don’t do it to build an audience or to seek recognition for them. I do it because I want to explore why I struggle with the things I struggle with, and why I love the things I love. This is the kind of reason people should be writing blog posts for! Not for chasing engagement and getting dissatisfied with the viewer analytics ("no one's reading, what's the point?"). Ironically, reading this instantly made me subscribe to the author's newsletter. Quoting what I said in a comment a year ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28592353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28592353): > Who cares if no one is reading? You blog because you have something to express on the internet, not because you're seeking attention from others. Content creation for the sole purpose of views is incredibly superficial.
gat1 4y ago
Looking into myself is way too scary though.
- smackeyacky 4y ago
  Depending on how old you are, you might find yourself forced to looking into yourself. Any life changing event that gives you a jolt, circumstances out of your control or an onset of depression. I certainly wasn't ready for my bout of depression and wished at the time that I knew myself better Talk therapy helped but it would have been a lot easier if I had examined my own motivations long before that.
- mrg3_2013 4y ago
  Underrated comment. Lot of internal struggles can only be solved by internal examination. It is very difficult and takes tremendous courage, starting first with acknowledging the issue. So many comments claimed to have solved it and yet this is one of the hardest to overcome.
harha_ 4y ago
I'm barely able to feel envy towards anyone, I guess it's because I realized long ago that most of the time you shouldn't compare yourself to others.
- mrg3_2013 4y ago
  Lucky! And the best kind. If you don't have a choice to become envious, you've arrived!
hi41 4y ago
I think envy is a tool we have as a result of evolution. If you don’t buy the next best car or that shiny thing (house, jewelry etc), the sexual partner may choose the one who does instead of you. I think envy is the arms race we developed so that we try hard to find a partner so that your gene pool continues to exist. I am not sure we can do what the author says about “knowing oneself” as there are very so many ways to interpret it. I think we are way more complicated to be able to know oneself since we have 3.5 billion years of evolutionary history. Our unhappiness may act as a counterweight so that we may choose to tame our envy.
powersnail 4y ago
> Ultimately, envy is the result of not knowing who you are. It arises when you outsource your definitions of success to whatever norms you’ve adopted – whether consciously or not. In one person’s case, it might be wealth. In another, it may be social media followers. In another, it could be the size of a home. Regardless of what the barometer is, the fact that you desire it means that you’re looking beyond the contents of your mind and into the collective pool of society. You’re ceasing to look into what makes you uniquely you, and are gazing into the chaos of chasing that which you don’t understand. Envy, can't just be the result of not knowing who you are, can it? The former is a very specific emotion, and the latter is a nebulous statement of your self-awareness. At its heart, Envy has something to do with what you desire but do not possess while some other people do. It can't just be a lack of self-awareness. What is the criteria for knowing who you are? Is it the realization that you should stop desiring anything which other people possess but you don't? That sounds more like a rationalization than an antidote. When Bob loves Eve, and is henceforth envious of Tom who's Eve's current crush, does it mean that Bob is "looking beyond the contents of his mind into the collective pool of society"---being Eve, and ceasing to look into what make Bob uniquely Bob? And, if he instead start gazing into himself, he'll discover that he doesn't love Eve, that his burning desire is nothing but the outsourced definition of success? And at the end of the day, isn't the desire to _not be envious_ also part of the social norm, and hence an outsourced definition of success? I feel that these kind of nebulous concepts (outsourcing definition of success, know thyself, societal norms, etc.) just don't match up to the reality. When I'm picturing the actual envious times which I or the people I know have experienced, they provide neither a sufficient framework to understand these emotions, nor the antidote, while often assuming that you need an antidote. Usually you don't. Envy is unpleasant, makes you look bitter, but all in all, pretty common place. People don't show deep sympathy to you, but you know, they also don't judge you for it. It's also part of your motivation to better yourself. There's nothing wrong with wanting what other people want. What other people want, other people might have already gotten, and that could make you feel envy, and that is perfectly natural. Recent years, especially on HN, I've read quite a few essays that seem to want to "turn off" negative emotions and regard the resulting tranquil state of mind as a virtue. It's like a new fad of doing psychological plastic surgery, where being envy or sad is like having a wrinkle which must be eradicated. No wonder people signed up to be Cyberman in Doctor Who. Maybe that _is_ going to be the new trend. Fitter, happier, fond but not in love, nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate, nothing so childish. I disagree with that. I'd rather live with the emotions, including anger, envy, jealousy, burning desires, or ranting, than to be, just, zen.
m3kw9 4y ago
First off is you shouldn’t think that zero envy is possible, envy is a bit of an evolutionary trait to allow forward progress. Should aim for low level of envy where you know you want it but not with intense pain, which is hard to achieve

79 points by herbertl 4y ago

Envy can be a positive and healthy force. E.g., I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. That gives me reason to learn more and progress. I think what the article refers to "envy" is a complete lack of self-esteem. Envy is healthy when you acknowledge your limitations. > But envy is one of the most pervasive problems in today’s world, especially as social media normalizes the successes of others, making you feel like you’re “underperforming” the average when in reality you’re being shown a highlight reel of outliers. This isn't really "envy", or not on its own.

JadeNB 4y ago
> Envy can be a positive and healthy force. E.g., I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. That gives me reason to learn more and progress. My understanding of the word is borne out by the formal definition, e.g., in Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/envy https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/envy): “Resentful desire of something possessed by another or others (but not limited to material possessions).” That ‘resentful’ part is key to why I think that envy is (almost?) always negative. It is good to work with people whose skills you admire; if you envy their skills then you not only want to have those skills yourself, but resent that they have them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- yazzku 4y ago
  Ok, that was a polite way of saying "English, motherfucker!"
- karmakaze 4y ago
  I'm not good at emotions and can really only recognize about 3 or 4 in myself. I do try to understand what value each emotion can have, on the presumption that if it had no value, it ought not to continue existing. Envy is the hardest one for me to find value in. At best it can be a kind of competitive motivating factor. That's all I've got. I think I avoid envy by first believing that 'I' could have been anyone on the planet, but just happened to be 'me'. Given that as a starting point, do the most with what you have. Even then I don't do near close to the max, so I'm not in any position to complain or desire beyond my means which I haven't realized.
  - jamiek88 4y ago
    >Even then I don't do near close to the max, so I'm not in any position to complain or desire beyond my means which I haven't realized. Interesting perspective, i like that a lot. How can I begrudge others things when I haven’t even maximized my own capability and or circumstances in life?
m463 4y ago
sounds like admire not envy
JohnFen 4y ago
> I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. I want to be around people who have skills and qualities I would like to learn. I can't honestly say I envy any of them, though.
anigbrowl 4y ago
Though noting your other comment below, envy is less about wanting something for oneself as wanting exclusive possession of it - not 'I wish to have that too' but 'that should be mine, not yours.'
mrg3_2013 4y ago
You are "technically" right about the definition of envy - but I think OP is using envy to indicate "wanting something that you feel you deserve". Sometimes you feel you deserved more. Sometimes you feel others deserved less.

renewiltord 4y ago

The antidote to envy is to invest in your friends' startups.

aschearer 4y ago

Cultivate gratitude for what you have, joy for what others have, and an appreciation that what's here one day may be gone the next. Easier said then done. PS the juxtaposition of "wisdom" with "subscribe for new posts and become a member" is amusing. Want enlightment? Then make sure to smash that subscribe button! Why not just share your wisdom without all those trappings?

paulpauper 4y ago

But envy is one of the most pervasive problems in today’s world, especially as social media normalizes the successes of others, making you feel like you’re “underperforming” the average when in reality you’re being shown a highlight reel of outliers. You’re always comparing yourself to someone ahead of you, and the goalpost will keep moving because the algorithm ensures that it moves on your behalf. And whenever a hierarchy like this exists, the fingers of envy creep within. People say this like it's a truism, but the notion that social media only shows successful people or is like a highlight reel of life, is possibly false. Unless your social circle is limited to tech founders or celebrities, most people live pretty mundane lives. https://greyenlightenment.com/2022/04/27/still-skeptical-about-the-link-between-social-media-and-envy/ https://greyenlightenment.com/2022/04/27/still-skeptical-abo... I don't see what is wrong with envy per say. What is wrong with wanting more. Envy is a major motivating or driving force of getting better at life.

throwaquestion5 4y ago
> People say this like it's a truism, but the notion that social media only shows successful people or is like a highlight reel of life, is possibly false. Unless your social circle is limited to tech founders or celebrities, most people live pretty mundane lives. The article is missing the whole point of envy. Envy manifest for those around you that have it better than you. The coworker that started with you and ended up climbing positions faster and has a better salary. The photos of the weeding of an old crush. Is about someone being an step up and the what-ifs that would have made it so you had that now. If you are start up founder yes, it makes sense being envious if you went in a round and someone got the investment you wanted; or an acquaintance is already retiring while you are still iterating on your 5th failure business. Envy adjust to the grandeur delusions people have. Tech founders and celebrities may be yours, but for most people those around them that have it better.

lnsru 4y ago

I lost envy emotion long time ago. It was there, but I know the guys I were envy to too good. Successful founders had immense wealth transfer behind the scenes from their parents. Or introduction to wealthy individuals in their social bubble. The good grade students were not gifted geniuses, but parents were able to cover all studying costs and these guys had time for learning. All these stories, that should make me envy, well.. they all have some behind the scenes hidden support component. I am perfectly fine with myself, thanks, no antidotes needed.

mrg3_2013 4y ago
Congrats if you have plucked envy out of you! How do you avoid being envious of "legit" individuals (i.e those who achieved greater success coming from far adverse situations) ?
- masterof0 4y ago
  Those "legit" individuals are so rare, that instead of feeling envy, I just feel curiosity, and the desire to learn from them. But so far, I don't know of anyone. I'm sure there are a few, but I haven't met anyone in person that deserves the "legit" label.
- shigawire 4y ago
  I'm a different guy but if someone is really better or worked harder or had better luck... There's not much I can do about it so it's whatever. I think this level of laziness and lack of ambition is out of place on this board, but common in the general public.
  - masterof0 4y ago
    True. Something I learn when I came years ago to the US, is you don't have to be awesome at anything, being normal, working hard and keeping in mind principles like "spend less than what you make" already put you above 90% of people. Most folks are lazy out there in the real world. You don't need to grind super hard.
- 4y ago

atemerev 4y ago

> Whatever I am, that I want to understand. Well I understand that I am a failure at life. That doesn't help much.

edmundsauto 4y ago
That sounds a bit like a cognitive distortion. What makes you say that? If it's actually true, the self-awareness is a good step to making some changes. I also caution that "not being successful in a rigged economic system" is not equal to failing at life.

mrg3_2013 4y ago

It's a great post. Envy needs to be demolished for peace. Some of the response alludes to using envy as a tool to make progress. But it is a flawed concept as one never achieves a peaceful mind (dog chasing cars one after another). I suppose it all boils down to what one wants out of life (i.e looking inward). If constant chase is the goal, envy is great.

jdmoreira 4y ago

Even today I was thinking about envy and that I might be envious towards a specific person in my circle. This person owns and operates a lifestyle business that is currently on auto-pilot and they have a lot of freedom, low stress, a seemingly endless stream of incoming capital and total control of their time. I don't resent this person of course but in a way I am envious, yes. I know I have it in me to grind into building such a business for myself but the circumstances of my family make it so I'm the sole provider and I have a full-time high stakes job. Like Charlie Munger said, "What good is envy? It’s the one sin you can’t have any fun at." but he also said... "Like Warren, I had a considerable passion to get rich, not because I wanted Ferraris – I wanted the independence. I desperately wanted it." and so I'm envious. As I'm sure he was once.

smackeyacky 4y ago
If you take a bit of time to be honest about what you really need (rather than what you want, or what you think others want of you) you can drastically scale back your lifestyle and get close to that independence. The extreme version of course is becoming homeless. At which point we find out that true independence simply isn't available. As old Bob Dylan said, you gotta serve somebody.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- m3kw9 4y ago
  Most cannot scale back easily as usually they brought a house matching their income potential. The key is scaling down your daily/monthly goods that isn’t housing and don’t scale up housing
  - jmathai 4y ago
    I’ve been deep in this for about 5 years. A couple of thoughts and anecdotes that may apply. * You can probably trim your budget by 20%. I’ve talked with a couple folks who do this just by switching from a credit card to a debit card. Screw the rewards. * Budgeting is the only way. It’s not near as terrible as people think. Just cut crap you won’t miss not having anyway. Be very disciplined. * Track net worth and savings rate. There are lots of tools for this. I made https://fiers.co https://fiers.co for myself - others use it too :). Personal capital is great if you are okay giving access to financial data. * Avoid debt like the plague. Mortgages are okay but the bigger it is the longer you’ll be tied to a particular income. * The value of time increases as you get older with a sharp uptick around 40. Given it takes 10-15 years of diligence to decouple your lifestyle and income - get started in your early 30s. * It will take 10-15 years before you have financial independence. This doesn’t mean you will quit your job…but it does mean you have the freedom to do things that like that which aren’t so tied to you earning income to meet your goals. * Shortcuts will just distract you and make your journey take longer.

fzeindl 4y ago

Envy is one of the most useless thoughts/emotions there is, it serves no purpose at all. But there's a good sentence for dealing with it, if you are envious of somebody else having something you can tell yourself: "I have something he doesn't have. I have _enough_."

TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
It is supposed to motivate you to better yourself, sadly most people just use it to explode the envied person's head in their immagination. That, or they join a political ideology well suited for weight-loss.
itake 4y ago
For me, envy motivates me and defines what is possible. Envy is not an enjoyable motion, but it pushes me out of my comfort zone and to achieve more than I am.

kayo_20211030 4y ago

Another personal "observation" of banal bollocks trying to pass as wisdom. How long before the TED talk audience has to suffer through 15 minutes of this?

mrg3_2013 4y ago
envy unlocked :)

SPBS 4y ago

This sentence stood out to me: > In my case, writing these kinds of essays is my way of understanding myself. I don’t do it to build an audience or to seek recognition for them. I do it because I want to explore why I struggle with the things I struggle with, and why I love the things I love. This is the kind of reason people should be writing blog posts for! Not for chasing engagement and getting dissatisfied with the viewer analytics ("no one's reading, what's the point?"). Ironically, reading this instantly made me subscribe to the author's newsletter. Quoting what I said in a comment a year ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28592353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28592353): > Who cares if no one is reading? You blog because you have something to express on the internet, not because you're seeking attention from others. Content creation for the sole purpose of views is incredibly superficial.

gat1 4y ago

Looking into myself is way too scary though.

smackeyacky 4y ago
Depending on how old you are, you might find yourself forced to looking into yourself. Any life changing event that gives you a jolt, circumstances out of your control or an onset of depression. I certainly wasn't ready for my bout of depression and wished at the time that I knew myself better Talk therapy helped but it would have been a lot easier if I had examined my own motivations long before that.
mrg3_2013 4y ago
Underrated comment. Lot of internal struggles can only be solved by internal examination. It is very difficult and takes tremendous courage, starting first with acknowledging the issue. So many comments claimed to have solved it and yet this is one of the hardest to overcome.

harha_ 4y ago

I'm barely able to feel envy towards anyone, I guess it's because I realized long ago that most of the time you shouldn't compare yourself to others.

mrg3_2013 4y ago
Lucky! And the best kind. If you don't have a choice to become envious, you've arrived!

hi41 4y ago

I think envy is a tool we have as a result of evolution. If you don’t buy the next best car or that shiny thing (house, jewelry etc), the sexual partner may choose the one who does instead of you. I think envy is the arms race we developed so that we try hard to find a partner so that your gene pool continues to exist. I am not sure we can do what the author says about “knowing oneself” as there are very so many ways to interpret it. I think we are way more complicated to be able to know oneself since we have 3.5 billion years of evolutionary history. Our unhappiness may act as a counterweight so that we may choose to tame our envy.

powersnail 4y ago

> Ultimately, envy is the result of not knowing who you are. It arises when you outsource your definitions of success to whatever norms you’ve adopted – whether consciously or not. In one person’s case, it might be wealth. In another, it may be social media followers. In another, it could be the size of a home. Regardless of what the barometer is, the fact that you desire it means that you’re looking beyond the contents of your mind and into the collective pool of society. You’re ceasing to look into what makes you uniquely you, and are gazing into the chaos of chasing that which you don’t understand. Envy, can't just be the result of not knowing who you are, can it? The former is a very specific emotion, and the latter is a nebulous statement of your self-awareness. At its heart, Envy has something to do with what you desire but do not possess while some other people do. It can't just be a lack of self-awareness. What is the criteria for knowing who you are? Is it the realization that you should stop desiring anything which other people possess but you don't? That sounds more like a rationalization than an antidote. When Bob loves Eve, and is henceforth envious of Tom who's Eve's current crush, does it mean that Bob is "looking beyond the contents of his mind into the collective pool of society"---being Eve, and ceasing to look into what make Bob uniquely Bob? And, if he instead start gazing into himself, he'll discover that he doesn't love Eve, that his burning desire is nothing but the outsourced definition of success? And at the end of the day, isn't the desire to _not be envious_ also part of the social norm, and hence an outsourced definition of success? I feel that these kind of nebulous concepts (outsourcing definition of success, know thyself, societal norms, etc.) just don't match up to the reality. When I'm picturing the actual envious times which I or the people I know have experienced, they provide neither a sufficient framework to understand these emotions, nor the antidote, while often assuming that you need an antidote. Usually you don't. Envy is unpleasant, makes you look bitter, but all in all, pretty common place. People don't show deep sympathy to you, but you know, they also don't judge you for it. It's also part of your motivation to better yourself. There's nothing wrong with wanting what other people want. What other people want, other people might have already gotten, and that could make you feel envy, and that is perfectly natural. Recent years, especially on HN, I've read quite a few essays that seem to want to "turn off" negative emotions and regard the resulting tranquil state of mind as a virtue. It's like a new fad of doing psychological plastic surgery, where being envy or sad is like having a wrinkle which must be eradicated. No wonder people signed up to be Cyberman in Doctor Who. Maybe that _is_ going to be the new trend. Fitter, happier, fond but not in love, nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate, nothing so childish. I disagree with that. I'd rather live with the emotions, including anger, envy, jealousy, burning desires, or ranting, than to be, just, zen.

m3kw9 4y ago

First off is you shouldn’t think that zero envy is possible, envy is a bit of an evolutionary trait to allow forward progress. Should aim for low level of envy where you know you want it but not with intense pain, which is hard to achieve