5 ms·

For some events, research is only allowed to conclude that they were as bad as we thought, or that they were even worse. Anything else is professional suicide.

For some events, research is only allowed to conclude that they were as bad as we thought, or that they were even worse. Anything else is professional suicide. Like a control circuit only able to correct the system in one direction, it will drift in that direction without limit. It turns history first to myth, then to fairy tale.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
AllegedAlec 4y ago
See also https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the-brain/ https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the...
- slim 4y ago
  We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anesthetic was used. what is this ? I can't parse. Is it an april fool or something ?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
rxhernandez 4y ago
I think this is predicated on the ends justifying the means since the author seems to acknowledge that there are some deeply problematic things with colonialism while simultaneously acknowledging that they should have pride in the results. What should be of no surprise to anyone, anywhere, is that people are deeply unmotivated to ever see the ends in a positive light if they were on the other end of that barrel full of evil means. Moreover, to say that someone should have pride in colonialism should translate to a tacit acknowledgement that colonialism was a great thing (if it's not great, why have pride in it at all?). And if it's a great thing why shouldn't we do it again? I mean, does anyone genuinely think any value the Nazis produced would make up for the enormity of their evil? Should Germans have pride in Nazis because they helped pioneer rocketry?
- nhchris 4y ago
  It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth. To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?" Somehow, we are able to dispassionately examine the harms and benefits when it comes to Islamic-ruled Spain. So why should we look at Britain's empire any differently?
  - rxhernandez 4y ago
    How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote: "Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past" Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in the results of colonialism (re: ends) despite the shame behind their ancestors' actions (re: means), the problem has never been related to how much evil benefits anyone. It's always been about how unnecessary evil is and the fact that there were always better options than evil.
    - nhchris 4y ago
      "Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".
      - rxhernandez 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying that Nazis caused good as well as bad and not seeing how that necessarily translates to ends justifying means
        nhchris 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying the objective truth, regardless of what tortured implications someone wrings from it. For example, the Wikipedia article on a different colonial empire, the Umayyad caliphate, is positively aglow with all the good it did (in addition to enslaving some of its subjects): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
pjc50 4y ago
Rhodes was bad, though. https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-rhodes-killed-millions-of-southern-africans-for-diamonds-and-lands/ https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-r... (Interestingly that article starts with mention of the massacre of Namibians by Germans. I don't think anyone is being "cancelled" over that, possibly because everyone involved was "cancelled" a lot harder in the middle of the 20th century for some reason)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

AllegedAlec 4y ago

See also https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the-brain/ https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the...

slim 4y ago
We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anesthetic was used. what is this ? I can't parse. Is it an april fool or something ?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

rxhernandez 4y ago

I think this is predicated on the ends justifying the means since the author seems to acknowledge that there are some deeply problematic things with colonialism while simultaneously acknowledging that they should have pride in the results. What should be of no surprise to anyone, anywhere, is that people are deeply unmotivated to ever see the ends in a positive light if they were on the other end of that barrel full of evil means. Moreover, to say that someone should have pride in colonialism should translate to a tacit acknowledgement that colonialism was a great thing (if it's not great, why have pride in it at all?). And if it's a great thing why shouldn't we do it again? I mean, does anyone genuinely think any value the Nazis produced would make up for the enormity of their evil? Should Germans have pride in Nazis because they helped pioneer rocketry?

nhchris 4y ago
It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth. To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?" Somehow, we are able to dispassionately examine the harms and benefits when it comes to Islamic-ruled Spain. So why should we look at Britain's empire any differently?
- rxhernandez 4y ago
  How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote: "Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past" Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in the results of colonialism (re: ends) despite the shame behind their ancestors' actions (re: means), the problem has never been related to how much evil benefits anyone. It's always been about how unnecessary evil is and the fact that there were always better options than evil.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    "Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".
    - rxhernandez 4y ago
      Imagine someone saying that Nazis caused good as well as bad and not seeing how that necessarily translates to ends justifying means
      - nhchris 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying the objective truth, regardless of what tortured implications someone wrings from it. For example, the Wikipedia article on a different colonial empire, the Umayyad caliphate, is positively aglow with all the good it did (in addition to enslaving some of its subjects): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

pjc50 4y ago

Rhodes was bad, though. https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-rhodes-killed-millions-of-southern-africans-for-diamonds-and-lands/ https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-r... (Interestingly that article starts with mention of the massacre of Namibians by Germans. I don't think anyone is being "cancelled" over that, possibly because everyone involved was "cancelled" a lot harder in the middle of the 20th century for some reason)