4 ms·

> her mother had taught her that naturally smart people don’t have to study. Of all the parts of the article, that little bit stands out. Because I see my old

by gopalv 4y ago

> her mother had taught her that naturally smart people don’t have to study. Of all the parts of the article, that little bit stands out. Because I see my older kid do that all the time, as if putting in effort to do something is somehow not the real thing. As if things learned from mistakes and practice is not progress - a substitute for talent.

vba616 4y ago
You can't divine the value of experience, except from experience.
knaik94 4y ago
It's related to pride, in my experience tutoring high school and college kids. That was my own experience while growing up as well, there's a sentiment that "natural" smartness and hard-working smartness are two seperate things. I feel like kids have been moving away from this mindset, but maybe it's changed names. Growing up being a "nerd" was uncool, and studying was "nerdy". After college, I talked to some of the people who were the "naturally" smart kids and I found out they lied so much about how much time they spent not studying. Everyone lies. Part of it, I learned, was that my graduating class ended up with a lot of cut-throat people, they lied about how much work they put in to gatekeep. I don't speak to a single person from my graduating year now even though I am friends with some teachers as well as kids from other years. A similar concept but less isolated to academics has been kind of a popular "insult". I sometimes hear the concept of "sweaty" being uncool among the youngest ages I teach. Sweaty, as in working so hard towards something that you work up a sweat. It's doesn't have to be a physical activity, you can be called sweaty at video games, or sweaty at math. Education is a weird place to use the word talent, looking back. You can't wake up knowing new information. Everyone has to learn, the people who look talented just learned it earlier than everyone else. I am not sure why hard working is seen as uncool at that age. I wonder if it's different in other parts of the world, I learned that I have a very typical north eastern USA experience.
- whatever1 4y ago
  The most successful people I know are regular smart folks who have patience, and can get into deep focus mode / zone at-will. The smartest people I know have 0 focus, but they can grasp insanely complex topics that are interesting to them super fast.
  - knaik94 4y ago
    You're not strictly describing intelligence, you're also describing symptoms that relate to ADHD. I wonder if there's a bias to categorize someone as more intelligent based on the contrast between someone's ability to focus and their ability to grasp complex ideas quickly. I struggle severly with ADHD and notice it all of the time, in how people's perception of me changes when we end up on a topic I know well and enjoy talking about.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  "there's a sentiment that "natural" smartness and hard-working smartness are two seperate things." This is a huge problem in the dating market too. "Self improvement" implies that at one point one was a singificantly less high status individual... And that they are at risk of backsliding. People who are naturally gifted or don't have to try have less risk of becoming unattractive later. It's sexier, cooler, and more successful to be good at something without trying. I don't blame your kids.
  - cafard 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprezzatura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprezzatura
- tharkun__ 4y ago
  You can't wake up knowing new information. Everyone has to learn, the people who look talented just learned it earlier than everyone else. Of course you are correct that the "naturally smart" people learned it faster. As in, new information was provided to them just once or twice and they instantly grasped it and were able to apply it. As knowledge accumulates in people they may also actually "wake up with new information" nobody taught them. As in their brains may make associations and conclusions without someone teaching them. The proverbial "I had an idea while showering". There's your "talented" guy.
j7ake 4y ago
It’s a protection mechanism for ones ego. Because if you “don’t try” you always have an excuse for why you’re not doing as well as the “nerds” at school. If you do “try” but you don’t get a top result, what would that say to a kids fragile ego ? They might think they’re not good at all. By trying, you reveal your capabilities (as well as your limitations), and that can be terrifying for a kid with a fragile ego. The correct mentality is to focus on the process, rather than the result. The result doesn’t matter (especially for kids) as long as you focus on training and improving yourself.
- eulenteufel 4y ago
  A problem with this attitude is how schools and their grading systems are teaching children the exact opposite. What matters are your grades in the end. I feel like judging myself by my results and not by the process im going through was so deeply ingrained in me that even after years of trying I cannot get rid of it.
  - pksebben 4y ago
    SO is a high school teacher. This is her primary complaint about how we do things today. She talks a lot about the book Grading for Equity. I'm of the opinion that traditional schooling is a bit of a zombie. There just isn't a way for an institution with that much inertia to keep up with a world that releases generalized search and chat-capable LLMs within 20 years of each other. Especially considering they're so underfunded that in places you don't even need to know a subject to get a job teaching it, because they don't have enough SMEs willing to work at the pay.
lost_padawan 4y ago
How are you dealing with this? I used to feel that way too but now that I actually want to put more effort, I cannot being myself to do that. I cannot focus and get easily distracted whenever I try.
User23 4y ago
Naturally smart kids really don’t have to study in high school because the material is so easy for them. Just staying awake in class and doing the reading once is sufficient if not moreso. Often times exam answers can be inferred from other exam questions with only partial knowledge of the material. There’s often a rude awakening in store for them though when they hit the second or third year of college and encounter challenging material for the first time while having no experience studying.
klyrs 4y ago
My kid is pretty smart, not genius smart, and he falls into this trap too. He loves succeeding at stuff, but hates putting effort into it. If he tries and fails once, he says "well I'm just not a ____ person" and digs his heels in. If we cajole him into trying, he'll intentionally flub it.

by gopalv 4y ago

vba616 4y ago

You can't divine the value of experience, except from experience.

knaik94 4y ago

It's related to pride, in my experience tutoring high school and college kids. That was my own experience while growing up as well, there's a sentiment that "natural" smartness and hard-working smartness are two seperate things. I feel like kids have been moving away from this mindset, but maybe it's changed names. Growing up being a "nerd" was uncool, and studying was "nerdy". After college, I talked to some of the people who were the "naturally" smart kids and I found out they lied so much about how much time they spent not studying. Everyone lies. Part of it, I learned, was that my graduating class ended up with a lot of cut-throat people, they lied about how much work they put in to gatekeep. I don't speak to a single person from my graduating year now even though I am friends with some teachers as well as kids from other years. A similar concept but less isolated to academics has been kind of a popular "insult". I sometimes hear the concept of "sweaty" being uncool among the youngest ages I teach. Sweaty, as in working so hard towards something that you work up a sweat. It's doesn't have to be a physical activity, you can be called sweaty at video games, or sweaty at math. Education is a weird place to use the word talent, looking back. You can't wake up knowing new information. Everyone has to learn, the people who look talented just learned it earlier than everyone else. I am not sure why hard working is seen as uncool at that age. I wonder if it's different in other parts of the world, I learned that I have a very typical north eastern USA experience.

whatever1 4y ago
The most successful people I know are regular smart folks who have patience, and can get into deep focus mode / zone at-will. The smartest people I know have 0 focus, but they can grasp insanely complex topics that are interesting to them super fast.
- knaik94 4y ago
  You're not strictly describing intelligence, you're also describing symptoms that relate to ADHD. I wonder if there's a bias to categorize someone as more intelligent based on the contrast between someone's ability to focus and their ability to grasp complex ideas quickly. I struggle severly with ADHD and notice it all of the time, in how people's perception of me changes when we end up on a topic I know well and enjoy talking about.
Der_Einzige 4y ago
"there's a sentiment that "natural" smartness and hard-working smartness are two seperate things." This is a huge problem in the dating market too. "Self improvement" implies that at one point one was a singificantly less high status individual... And that they are at risk of backsliding. People who are naturally gifted or don't have to try have less risk of becoming unattractive later. It's sexier, cooler, and more successful to be good at something without trying. I don't blame your kids.
- cafard 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprezzatura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprezzatura
tharkun__ 4y ago
You can't wake up knowing new information. Everyone has to learn, the people who look talented just learned it earlier than everyone else. Of course you are correct that the "naturally smart" people learned it faster. As in, new information was provided to them just once or twice and they instantly grasped it and were able to apply it. As knowledge accumulates in people they may also actually "wake up with new information" nobody taught them. As in their brains may make associations and conclusions without someone teaching them. The proverbial "I had an idea while showering". There's your "talented" guy.

j7ake 4y ago

It’s a protection mechanism for ones ego. Because if you “don’t try” you always have an excuse for why you’re not doing as well as the “nerds” at school. If you do “try” but you don’t get a top result, what would that say to a kids fragile ego ? They might think they’re not good at all. By trying, you reveal your capabilities (as well as your limitations), and that can be terrifying for a kid with a fragile ego. The correct mentality is to focus on the process, rather than the result. The result doesn’t matter (especially for kids) as long as you focus on training and improving yourself.

eulenteufel 4y ago
A problem with this attitude is how schools and their grading systems are teaching children the exact opposite. What matters are your grades in the end. I feel like judging myself by my results and not by the process im going through was so deeply ingrained in me that even after years of trying I cannot get rid of it.
- pksebben 4y ago
  SO is a high school teacher. This is her primary complaint about how we do things today. She talks a lot about the book Grading for Equity. I'm of the opinion that traditional schooling is a bit of a zombie. There just isn't a way for an institution with that much inertia to keep up with a world that releases generalized search and chat-capable LLMs within 20 years of each other. Especially considering they're so underfunded that in places you don't even need to know a subject to get a job teaching it, because they don't have enough SMEs willing to work at the pay.

lost_padawan 4y ago

How are you dealing with this? I used to feel that way too but now that I actually want to put more effort, I cannot being myself to do that. I cannot focus and get easily distracted whenever I try.

User23 4y ago

Naturally smart kids really don’t have to study in high school because the material is so easy for them. Just staying awake in class and doing the reading once is sufficient if not moreso. Often times exam answers can be inferred from other exam questions with only partial knowledge of the material. There’s often a rude awakening in store for them though when they hit the second or third year of college and encounter challenging material for the first time while having no experience studying.

klyrs 4y ago

My kid is pretty smart, not genius smart, and he falls into this trap too. He loves succeeding at stuff, but hates putting effort into it. If he tries and fails once, he says "well I'm just not a ____ person" and digs his heels in. If we cajole him into trying, he'll intentionally flub it.