3 ms·

This article does not make any sense to me. It basically explains imposter syndrome as the consequence of having unrealistic external expectations of success an

by _yb2s 4y ago

This article does not make any sense to me. It basically explains imposter syndrome as the consequence of having unrealistic external expectations of success and ability, requiring a fake persona, e.g. being the result of privilege and expectations that come with it, but then also dismisses mens experience of this phenomenon, and talks about how it’s basically the result of systematic injustice against women. How can it be both? And how can they justify hand waving away the fact that men also experience this?

1shooner 4y ago
>Although men do report feeling like impostors, the experience is primarily associated with women No citation on that one...
- _yb2s 4y ago
  Anecdotally, as a man in academia, all of the men I know closely also experience this. It’s pretty much universal for men and women. If it’s more associated with women, I think that is because it’s less socially acceptable for men to be vulnerable, or discuss their feelings. It makes sense to me that it is in a sense a consequence of privilege, success, and opportunities. If nobody believes in you, or expects a lot from you, you won’t feel like an imposter.
  - wahern 4y ago
    > I think that is because it’s less socially acceptable for men to be vulnerable, or discuss their feelings. This is also true in the broader sense of public discourse. I remember talk shows like Oprah Winfrey in the 1990s discussing women's sexual health and how women never get to discuss or explore women's sexual health issues. Fast forward 30 years and I've come to realize that this narrative--1) women experience X, 2) women never get to openly discuss X--is a constant. Not just in the past 30 years, but going back for a least a century if you read popular women's magazines. Heck, just last night on NPR (KQED) there was discussion about menopause and how women are ignorant about the physiology of menopause because it's never openly discussed. And I'm like, "are you kidding me! I don't have enough fingers to count how many times over the past 20+ years I've heard a program on KQED not only dedicated to menopause, but claim that nobody ever talks about menopause." As contrasted to men's health issues, where I definitely have enough fingers. Which isn't to deny a deficit in open discourse regarding many women's issues, but certainly there's no deficit in the narrative that women's issues are never openly discussed; quite the opposite, they're constantly discussed--on the air, in print, etc, because apparently there's strong demand among women to discuss them.
    - 1shooner 4y ago
      I wouldn't consider the last century, 30 years, or even 5 years as providing a constant pattern for the level and access to discourse about issues impacting non white males. There is a world of difference between Oprah in the 80s and 90s making a space to address these things, and NPR today.
gotoeleven 4y ago
A classic "world to end tomorrow - women and minorities hardest hit" article
wahern 4y ago
Surmising from the article, it appears that Imposter Syndrome was originally conceptualized in the context of feminist thought and at some later point migrated into wider cultural discourse as a more gender neutral concept. But for people immersed in feminist literature and discourse it's probably still very much a feminist concept, especially as it relates to experiences. Because of how women physically and emotionally mature and the social roles they grow into, I can easily imagine that there are dimensions to Imposter Syndrome as originally conceived which would be less familiar to or less intense for most men. For example, stressors regarding dress, tensions between sexuality and professionalism, dilemmas between following the rules vs breaking the rules, etc. But I'm being charitable. The quick dismissal by the author is indeed disheartening.
- knaik94 4y ago
  I feel less charitable. In the last couple of decades, there has been meaningful change in people adhering to traditional gender roles. Especially in the last 10 years, I have seen a huge push to break the cultural acceptance of toxic masculinity. Pretending that men would be less familiar or feel it less intensely, in this day and age, is continuing the underlying themes of toxic masculinity. It's not just disheartening, it's disrespectful. I understand arguing that it affects women disproportionately, but I can't understand arguing that it won't affect men. Even if you are immersed in feminist literature, you have to be aware of the changing gender norms.
  - RajT88 4y ago
    Indeed. I am no part of the LGBT+ community, but articles like this make me realize there are emotional elements of the female experience that resonate with me. Certainly imposter syndrome is something I have struggled with and continue to. I had an interaction just this week which brought it up. All that said, if some feminist idea wasn't intended for me, I am not going to sweat it. Feminism at its core is the idea that people are people regardless of gender and should be treated accordingly.
    - knaik94 4y ago

by _yb2s 4y ago

1shooner 4y ago

>Although men do report feeling like impostors, the experience is primarily associated with women No citation on that one...

_yb2s 4y ago
Anecdotally, as a man in academia, all of the men I know closely also experience this. It’s pretty much universal for men and women. If it’s more associated with women, I think that is because it’s less socially acceptable for men to be vulnerable, or discuss their feelings. It makes sense to me that it is in a sense a consequence of privilege, success, and opportunities. If nobody believes in you, or expects a lot from you, you won’t feel like an imposter.
- wahern 4y ago
  > I think that is because it’s less socially acceptable for men to be vulnerable, or discuss their feelings. This is also true in the broader sense of public discourse. I remember talk shows like Oprah Winfrey in the 1990s discussing women's sexual health and how women never get to discuss or explore women's sexual health issues. Fast forward 30 years and I've come to realize that this narrative--1) women experience X, 2) women never get to openly discuss X--is a constant. Not just in the past 30 years, but going back for a least a century if you read popular women's magazines. Heck, just last night on NPR (KQED) there was discussion about menopause and how women are ignorant about the physiology of menopause because it's never openly discussed. And I'm like, "are you kidding me! I don't have enough fingers to count how many times over the past 20+ years I've heard a program on KQED not only dedicated to menopause, but claim that nobody ever talks about menopause." As contrasted to men's health issues, where I definitely have enough fingers. Which isn't to deny a deficit in open discourse regarding many women's issues, but certainly there's no deficit in the narrative that women's issues are never openly discussed; quite the opposite, they're constantly discussed--on the air, in print, etc, because apparently there's strong demand among women to discuss them.
  - 1shooner 4y ago
    I wouldn't consider the last century, 30 years, or even 5 years as providing a constant pattern for the level and access to discourse about issues impacting non white males. There is a world of difference between Oprah in the 80s and 90s making a space to address these things, and NPR today.

gotoeleven 4y ago

A classic "world to end tomorrow - women and minorities hardest hit" article

wahern 4y ago

Surmising from the article, it appears that Imposter Syndrome was originally conceptualized in the context of feminist thought and at some later point migrated into wider cultural discourse as a more gender neutral concept. But for people immersed in feminist literature and discourse it's probably still very much a feminist concept, especially as it relates to experiences. Because of how women physically and emotionally mature and the social roles they grow into, I can easily imagine that there are dimensions to Imposter Syndrome as originally conceived which would be less familiar to or less intense for most men. For example, stressors regarding dress, tensions between sexuality and professionalism, dilemmas between following the rules vs breaking the rules, etc. But I'm being charitable. The quick dismissal by the author is indeed disheartening.

knaik94 4y ago
I feel less charitable. In the last couple of decades, there has been meaningful change in people adhering to traditional gender roles. Especially in the last 10 years, I have seen a huge push to break the cultural acceptance of toxic masculinity. Pretending that men would be less familiar or feel it less intensely, in this day and age, is continuing the underlying themes of toxic masculinity. It's not just disheartening, it's disrespectful. I understand arguing that it affects women disproportionately, but I can't understand arguing that it won't affect men. Even if you are immersed in feminist literature, you have to be aware of the changing gender norms.
- RajT88 4y ago
  Indeed. I am no part of the LGBT+ community, but articles like this make me realize there are emotional elements of the female experience that resonate with me. Certainly imposter syndrome is something I have struggled with and continue to. I had an interaction just this week which brought it up. All that said, if some feminist idea wasn't intended for me, I am not going to sweat it. Feminism at its core is the idea that people are people regardless of gender and should be treated accordingly.
  - knaik94 4y ago