5 ms·

The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? In the Croatian case, the Wikimedia Foundation

by akolbe 4y ago

The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? In the Croatian case, the Wikimedia Foundation commissioned a study (a "Disinformation Assessment") that did indeed come to that conclusion. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Wikipedia_Disinformation_Assessment-2021 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Wikipedia_Disinform... If you do have info on the Hungarian Wikipedia, a link or two would be appreciated. Thanks.

chx 4y ago
> The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? Quite. It's subtle but the bias is obvious. But, since it's Hungary ... who gives a damn? Have you seen the prime minister?
- akolbe 4y ago
  Could you name a few prominent Hungarian Wikipedia articles that you feel are problematic? I don't speak Hungarian, but DeepL and Google Translate do a reasonable job and I'd be interested in looking into it. Yes, I'm aware of Hungarians' choice of prime minister and would expect to see that preference reflected in the Hungarian Wikipedia. I just didn't think it was as far out as the Croatian one. If it is – well, people did care about the Croatian one eventually. There are a number of places where it's possible to flag concerns (Wikimedia-l mailing list, Meta-Wiki, Wikipedia Signpost, Wikipedia Weekly, etc.)
  - chx 4y ago
    Even in English, I have been fighting to delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people but I simply gave up. Look at the sources. There's "Detailed report about a Hungarian expedition" and if you click on the first article, https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu/portal/401039 https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu... it literally starts with "There are no such people as Magyarabs". Second sentence "The black Hungarians straight out of a romantic grand novel do not exist." The other reference https://web.archive.org/web/20050213015534/http://w3.datanet.hu/~demokrat/muh1-429.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20050213015534/http://w3.datanet... now that's a neonazi rag. The whole thing started when in the 30s a couple Egyptians decided to bilk a Hungarian noble wandering around there and got rewarmed by a hustler in the sixties who spent two semesters in Cairo then sold himself as an expert back in Hungary in all matters Egyptian and got a posh job for himself at the public radio as such. His Egyptian dictionary was so shit it never got printed, though. Him sharing a name with one of the most famous archeologists didn't hurt his prospects, of course. Then in the 90s said rag dug up the whole thing again for nationalistic reasons and now people consider it fact despite the expedition that was sent to find them found nothing. Quite obviously. And, by now, people consider it fact mostly because of Wikipedia... As for subtlety and for why all your translations are completely pointless can be not found in the Holocaust article https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsid%C3%B3_holokauszt_Magyarorsz%C3%A1gon https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsid%C3%B3_holokauszt_Magyaror... which, while does paint a picture of cruelty from the Hungarians, almost completely lacks the work of Krisztián Ungváry -- and it's quite important work. It was he who have found in the records that Hungarians sent many more trainloads of Jews than the Germans asked for, so much so the Germans told them to slow down. And now look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriszti%C3%A1n_Ungv%C3%A1ry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriszti%C3%A1n_Ungv%C3%A1ry and tell me, do you see any mention of him being an important Holocaust researcher despite even the Hungarian holocaust article uses him as a source once and uses another article of his as "additional information". (And of course he is only quoted on the forced labor battalions not on the Holocaust itself in Hungary.) Perhaps most importantly, where is https://doi.org/10.1515/9789633861738-007 https://doi.org/10.1515/9789633861738-007 from this page, not to mention several non-scholarly articles? What is missing is telling. As for the influence being known, Klára Sándor was explicitly asked to edit https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely%E2%80%93magyar_rov%C3%A1s%C3%ADr%C3%A1s https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely%E2%80%93magyar_ro... and she refused.
    - akolbe 4y ago
      Brilliant. Thank you.
      - chx 4y ago
        Want more? Check the article on the Hungarian conquest: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honfoglal%C3%A1s https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honfoglal%C3%A1s and search for the word "genetika". It's genetics in Hungarian. Archaeogenetics has been painting a very interesting and rather different picture compared to the traditions and there is not. a single. mention. of. this. Absolutely nothing! This research has been ongoing since 2008, it's not like it's too new. It also forgets to mention the heavy source criticism work being done in a similar time frame -- of course it does because it would show the entire thing is a gigantic "maybe". By now we know what we actually know solidly is extremely little. And yes, all this is heavily debated right now among historians but shouldn't this debate be at least mentioned? The sources listed have books from the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it's hardly a surprise their accuracy is not the greatest.... You can check either https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum for any mentions of the uncomfortable truth that this is more a medieval comics than any valid source of history. Once again, even if you consider this debatable -- to be frank, it's not -- it really should be mentioned the historicity of this is heavily questionable. Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Wass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Wass to https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wass_Albert https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wass_Albert . The English one at least talks at length of why he was sentenced to death as a war criminal and what happened later but in the Hungarian one? Almost all of that is missing. Needless to say, the current regime and even further right elements valorize him.
        chx 4y ago
        Ps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carp... is full of discussion of genetics and archeogenetics.

by akolbe 4y ago

chx 4y ago

> The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? Quite. It's subtle but the bias is obvious. But, since it's Hungary ... who gives a damn? Have you seen the prime minister?

akolbe 4y ago
Could you name a few prominent Hungarian Wikipedia articles that you feel are problematic? I don't speak Hungarian, but DeepL and Google Translate do a reasonable job and I'd be interested in looking into it. Yes, I'm aware of Hungarians' choice of prime minister and would expect to see that preference reflected in the Hungarian Wikipedia. I just didn't think it was as far out as the Croatian one. If it is – well, people did care about the Croatian one eventually. There are a number of places where it's possible to flag concerns (Wikimedia-l mailing list, Meta-Wiki, Wikipedia Signpost, Wikipedia Weekly, etc.)
- chx 4y ago
  Even in English, I have been fighting to delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people but I simply gave up. Look at the sources. There's "Detailed report about a Hungarian expedition" and if you click on the first article, https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu/portal/401039 https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu... it literally starts with "There are no such people as Magyarabs". Second sentence "The black Hungarians straight out of a romantic grand novel do not exist." The other reference https://web.archive.org/web/20050213015534/http://w3.datanet.hu/~demokrat/muh1-429.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20050213015534/http://w3.datanet... now that's a neonazi rag. The whole thing started when in the 30s a couple Egyptians decided to bilk a Hungarian noble wandering around there and got rewarmed by a hustler in the sixties who spent two semesters in Cairo then sold himself as an expert back in Hungary in all matters Egyptian and got a posh job for himself at the public radio as such. His Egyptian dictionary was so shit it never got printed, though. Him sharing a name with one of the most famous archeologists didn't hurt his prospects, of course. Then in the 90s said rag dug up the whole thing again for nationalistic reasons and now people consider it fact despite the expedition that was sent to find them found nothing. Quite obviously. And, by now, people consider it fact mostly because of Wikipedia... As for subtlety and for why all your translations are completely pointless can be not found in the Holocaust article https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsid%C3%B3_holokauszt_Magyarorsz%C3%A1gon https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsid%C3%B3_holokauszt_Magyaror... which, while does paint a picture of cruelty from the Hungarians, almost completely lacks the work of Krisztián Ungváry -- and it's quite important work. It was he who have found in the records that Hungarians sent many more trainloads of Jews than the Germans asked for, so much so the Germans told them to slow down. And now look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriszti%C3%A1n_Ungv%C3%A1ry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriszti%C3%A1n_Ungv%C3%A1ry and tell me, do you see any mention of him being an important Holocaust researcher despite even the Hungarian holocaust article uses him as a source once and uses another article of his as "additional information". (And of course he is only quoted on the forced labor battalions not on the Holocaust itself in Hungary.) Perhaps most importantly, where is https://doi.org/10.1515/9789633861738-007 https://doi.org/10.1515/9789633861738-007 from this page, not to mention several non-scholarly articles? What is missing is telling. As for the influence being known, Klára Sándor was explicitly asked to edit https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely%E2%80%93magyar_rov%C3%A1s%C3%ADr%C3%A1s https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely%E2%80%93magyar_ro... and she refused.
  - akolbe 4y ago
    Brilliant. Thank you.
    - chx 4y ago
      Want more? Check the article on the Hungarian conquest: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honfoglal%C3%A1s https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honfoglal%C3%A1s and search for the word "genetika". It's genetics in Hungarian. Archaeogenetics has been painting a very interesting and rather different picture compared to the traditions and there is not. a single. mention. of. this. Absolutely nothing! This research has been ongoing since 2008, it's not like it's too new. It also forgets to mention the heavy source criticism work being done in a similar time frame -- of course it does because it would show the entire thing is a gigantic "maybe". By now we know what we actually know solidly is extremely little. And yes, all this is heavily debated right now among historians but shouldn't this debate be at least mentioned? The sources listed have books from the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it's hardly a surprise their accuracy is not the greatest.... You can check either https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum for any mentions of the uncomfortable truth that this is more a medieval comics than any valid source of history. Once again, even if you consider this debatable -- to be frank, it's not -- it really should be mentioned the historicity of this is heavily questionable. Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Wass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Wass to https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wass_Albert https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wass_Albert . The English one at least talks at length of why he was sentenced to death as a war criminal and what happened later but in the Hungarian one? Almost all of that is missing. Needless to say, the current regime and even further right elements valorize him.
      - chx 4y ago
        Ps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carp... is full of discussion of genetics and archeogenetics.