4 ms·

I'd rather be spied on by a western democracy than China. Our intelligence agencies are out of control but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them in

by mulmen 4y ago

I'd rather be spied on by a western democracy than China. Our intelligence agencies are out of control but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them in than China.

smcl 4y ago
What mechanisms do you recommend for reining in, say, the NSA or GHCQ? Were either reined in at all after the Snowden leaks, or was it business as usual after things calmed down a bit? I think we have to accept that these intelligence agencies are effectively untouchable and here to stay. With that in mind I think it boils down to: who can do the most harm by spying on you: - a country thousands of miles away which you probably have no connection to and don't visit - the country you live in I said in another comment but it bears repeating - I don't want anyone spying on me, but I am losing no sleep over Chinese intelligence, I am an extremely uninteresting target for them. If a Chinese agent is watching me die repeatedly in Elden Ring, looking at webcam footage of me gawping at my monitor while I scroll HN, or checking the stupid FB messages I send to my friends they'll realise pretty quickly I'm not worth the bandwidth or the storage space. A local agency might be interested in those FB messages, especially if I was politically active, vocally against the government and I was trying to organize protests or strike action.
- jasmer 4y ago
  They are 'touchable', there is oversight, and their powers are very limited. Give me an example of Americans who have been materially harmed by those agencies? And what was the damage? Have Americans been oppressed, slandered for political gain, wrongly imprisoned, illegally targeted by police because of NSA activity? I think it's doubtful for anything other than a few incidents; the proportionality of these tradeoffs does matter as these agencies do actually go after bad people. Like people selling sanctioned gear to Russia, money laundering, sex trafficking, etc. you know - 'bad things'. I don't see professors disappearing because they said something on campus Biden didn't like.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Wait so you're not against Chinese spying, rather just really pro-US spying? That's ... certainly a position!
    - avgcorrection 4y ago
      Something funny about the people who are less worried about US spying because there is “oversight” and they are ultimately “democratically controlled”: they seem to be the same people who have very high faith in them working correctly and not against them. So they are certainly not going to be the ones who keep them in check.
      - jasmer 4y ago
        The 'problematic people' are those who do not have the capacity to realize the difference between authoritarian regimes and their internal apparatus, vs the need state security with oversight. These people are usually naively driven by some kind of decontextualized political mindset, where the equate the arbitrary actions of some state far away, in same context as local governance, and a big dose of ultra liberal (classical) utopianism. 'The NSA is like Xi because they can spy on me'. It's like saying 'Biden is as bad as Xi because ultimately the Police in the USA could arrest me and put me in prison for 70 years'. It's barely theoretically true and it makes little sense to compare systems that have oversight and independent judiciary with those controlled by a Dictator. It's good that the US has the ability to know which Russian stooges are giving money to would-be US presidents, or heading his presidential campaign. And good that the US can trace large sums of money floating out of FTX's Bahamian bank account into the hands of whoever, especially politicians. If a student protester dissappears in the night because they made an online post critical of the governor - well, all of us will hear about it a few hours later.
        avgcorrection 4y ago
        You’re the one who brought up the strawman of good/bad and morality, buddy. People weren’t talking about which regime was better or worse. They were only talking about rational self-interest based on where they are located in the world. (And also bringing up how no state actor only does bad things to bad people in order to dispute the typical “if you’ve got nothing to hide/have done no wrong then you have nothing to worry about”.) ISIS is worse than a mall cop with a bully streak, but it makes more sense for me to worry about that mall cop while shopping at the mall than to worry about ISIS.
- mulmen 4y ago
  > What mechanisms do you recommend for reining in, say, the NSA or GHCQ? Democracy. Vote. Free expression. Tell the people what is happening and why privacy is important. > Were either reined in at all after the Snowden leaks, Yes. > or was it business as usual after things calmed down a bit? No. > I think we have to accept that these intelligence agencies are effectively untouchable and here to stay. We do not. They are not. Apathy is toxic. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good to do nothing. > With that in mind I think it boils down to: who can do the most harm by spying on you: - a country thousands of miles away which you probably have no connection to and don't visit - the country you live in China is our single greatest geopolitical adversary. Psyops are real. The ability to influence the public opinion of a geopolitical adversary supports the Chinese salami slicer strategy. It’s reinforced by understanding their adversaries electorate. > I said in another comment but it bears repeating - I don't want anyone spying on me, Same. > but I am losing no sleep over Chinese intelligence, You probably should be. > I am an extremely uninteresting target for them. We are all interesting targets. They may not assassinate, extort, or disappear you in the middle of the night but they can change your opinions without you even noticing. > If a Chinese agent is watching me die repeatedly in Elden Ring, looking at webcam footage of me gawping at my monitor while I scroll HN, or checking the stupid FB messages I send to my friends they'll realise pretty quickly I'm not worth the bandwidth or the storage space. Why would an individual agent need to look at anything? People aren’t interesting. We’re all basically the same. But if they know you play Elden Ring and browse HN they can tailor an effective message to you and everyone like you. > A local agency might be interested in those FB messages, especially if I was politically active, vocally against the government and I was trying to organize protests or strike action. Yes and that’s an illegal abuse of power. One that can be remedied in a court of law.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Hey I'm not saying "give up, hand over your passwords and keys to the NSA, don't ever vote or write to your representatives" but we're in a discussion over who you should be worried about spying on you more - non-specific "China" or some domestic intelligence services (or an alliance of a few "friendly" countries). I think your comment is rooted in a sort of common belief that America is, for all its faults, just plain more decent and just than those scary foreign places - along the lines of American Exceptionalism. You even mention they can "change your opinions without you even noticing" - this is basically the Korean War propaganda about communist "brainwashing" techniques. The sad reality is both USA and China are willing spy on people, if you're based in the USA you should really care more about the USA's attempts at surveillance than China's. edit: you deleted your reply before I could post mine. It seemed like I pissed you off a bit so I was trying to clarify and apologise a bit. Here's what I wrote: > You did though Well I said that they're untouchable and was then trying to clarify that we should still be pretty pissed off about it. I wrote the original at half-past midnight, it was a little clumsily worded. But you do have to accept that they are currently nearly untouchable and effectively operate outside the law and that right now you can do very little at all about what data is being collected on you. > I don’t think that is a favorable interpretation I don't think it is unfavourable at all, the only thing you've really stated there about why you'd be worried about any Chinese intelligence is that they can manipulate your beliefs without your knowing. You have to admit that there's at least a bit of a similarity with the hysteria around communist brainwashing. I'm sorry for causing any offence, I know it's not nice to feel like someone's accusing you of being a fervent nationalist (not my intent) but as an outsider your last couple of comments do have that air of "America is just ... better" and contained a slightly naive belief that you'd have any kind of hope taking on NSA or any other big TLA. I'll grant that what China would do with the data it collects on its citizens is likely far more severe than what the USA would (e.g. I don't think you're gonna be locked up for posting a an anti-Biden meme in USA, but sharing Xi Jinping as Winnie the Pooh in China will get you in a lot of hot water) so if that's what you meant then fair enough. I still don't think Chinese spying should be higher up on your list of worries than NSA spying - and in the grand scheme of things there are things you can worry about that you can actually change.
shakow 4y ago
But there are very little chance that China cares about you, whereas your local intelligence agency may have a much more direct impact on you. > but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them If we learned anything from the last half-century, it's that this predicate is just comically wrong.
bailoon 4y ago
> I'd rather be spied on by a western democracy than China. Why? What has china done that's worse? Did they nuke a country? Wipe out entire races of people? Did those nasty chinese invade dozens of countries? There is nothing inherent in a western democracy that makes it good. > Our intelligence agencies are out of control but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them in than China. There are no mechanisms for controlling any intelligence agencies. All intelligence agencies around the world are state actors. No law applies to them. Ask the people the intelligence agencies murdered, drugged, experimented on, etc. Unless you are chinese, you are far better off being "spied on" by the chinese than a western democracy because the chinese don't have any jurisdiction over you. This is all common sense. China isn't going to arrest you and put you in jail. A western democracy will though.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  > China isn't going to arrest you and put you in jail. Unless you’re Chinese. Now that we know China has secret police stations all round the world.
  - bailoon 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - bailoon 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 4y ago
        We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Flamewar and personal attack aren't allowed here. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

by mulmen 4y ago

I'd rather be spied on by a western democracy than China. Our intelligence agencies are out of control but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them in than China.

smcl 4y ago

What mechanisms do you recommend for reining in, say, the NSA or GHCQ? Were either reined in at all after the Snowden leaks, or was it business as usual after things calmed down a bit? I think we have to accept that these intelligence agencies are effectively untouchable and here to stay. With that in mind I think it boils down to: who can do the most harm by spying on you: - a country thousands of miles away which you probably have no connection to and don't visit - the country you live in I said in another comment but it bears repeating - I don't want anyone spying on me, but I am losing no sleep over Chinese intelligence, I am an extremely uninteresting target for them. If a Chinese agent is watching me die repeatedly in Elden Ring, looking at webcam footage of me gawping at my monitor while I scroll HN, or checking the stupid FB messages I send to my friends they'll realise pretty quickly I'm not worth the bandwidth or the storage space. A local agency might be interested in those FB messages, especially if I was politically active, vocally against the government and I was trying to organize protests or strike action.

jasmer 4y ago
They are 'touchable', there is oversight, and their powers are very limited. Give me an example of Americans who have been materially harmed by those agencies? And what was the damage? Have Americans been oppressed, slandered for political gain, wrongly imprisoned, illegally targeted by police because of NSA activity? I think it's doubtful for anything other than a few incidents; the proportionality of these tradeoffs does matter as these agencies do actually go after bad people. Like people selling sanctioned gear to Russia, money laundering, sex trafficking, etc. you know - 'bad things'. I don't see professors disappearing because they said something on campus Biden didn't like.
- smcl 4y ago
  Wait so you're not against Chinese spying, rather just really pro-US spying? That's ... certainly a position!
  - avgcorrection 4y ago
    Something funny about the people who are less worried about US spying because there is “oversight” and they are ultimately “democratically controlled”: they seem to be the same people who have very high faith in them working correctly and not against them. So they are certainly not going to be the ones who keep them in check.
    - jasmer 4y ago
      The 'problematic people' are those who do not have the capacity to realize the difference between authoritarian regimes and their internal apparatus, vs the need state security with oversight. These people are usually naively driven by some kind of decontextualized political mindset, where the equate the arbitrary actions of some state far away, in same context as local governance, and a big dose of ultra liberal (classical) utopianism. 'The NSA is like Xi because they can spy on me'. It's like saying 'Biden is as bad as Xi because ultimately the Police in the USA could arrest me and put me in prison for 70 years'. It's barely theoretically true and it makes little sense to compare systems that have oversight and independent judiciary with those controlled by a Dictator. It's good that the US has the ability to know which Russian stooges are giving money to would-be US presidents, or heading his presidential campaign. And good that the US can trace large sums of money floating out of FTX's Bahamian bank account into the hands of whoever, especially politicians. If a student protester dissappears in the night because they made an online post critical of the governor - well, all of us will hear about it a few hours later.
      - avgcorrection 4y ago
        You’re the one who brought up the strawman of good/bad and morality, buddy. People weren’t talking about which regime was better or worse. They were only talking about rational self-interest based on where they are located in the world. (And also bringing up how no state actor only does bad things to bad people in order to dispute the typical “if you’ve got nothing to hide/have done no wrong then you have nothing to worry about”.) ISIS is worse than a mall cop with a bully streak, but it makes more sense for me to worry about that mall cop while shopping at the mall than to worry about ISIS.
mulmen 4y ago
> What mechanisms do you recommend for reining in, say, the NSA or GHCQ? Democracy. Vote. Free expression. Tell the people what is happening and why privacy is important. > Were either reined in at all after the Snowden leaks, Yes. > or was it business as usual after things calmed down a bit? No. > I think we have to accept that these intelligence agencies are effectively untouchable and here to stay. We do not. They are not. Apathy is toxic. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good to do nothing. > With that in mind I think it boils down to: who can do the most harm by spying on you: - a country thousands of miles away which you probably have no connection to and don't visit - the country you live in China is our single greatest geopolitical adversary. Psyops are real. The ability to influence the public opinion of a geopolitical adversary supports the Chinese salami slicer strategy. It’s reinforced by understanding their adversaries electorate. > I said in another comment but it bears repeating - I don't want anyone spying on me, Same. > but I am losing no sleep over Chinese intelligence, You probably should be. > I am an extremely uninteresting target for them. We are all interesting targets. They may not assassinate, extort, or disappear you in the middle of the night but they can change your opinions without you even noticing. > If a Chinese agent is watching me die repeatedly in Elden Ring, looking at webcam footage of me gawping at my monitor while I scroll HN, or checking the stupid FB messages I send to my friends they'll realise pretty quickly I'm not worth the bandwidth or the storage space. Why would an individual agent need to look at anything? People aren’t interesting. We’re all basically the same. But if they know you play Elden Ring and browse HN they can tailor an effective message to you and everyone like you. > A local agency might be interested in those FB messages, especially if I was politically active, vocally against the government and I was trying to organize protests or strike action. Yes and that’s an illegal abuse of power. One that can be remedied in a court of law.
- smcl 4y ago
  Hey I'm not saying "give up, hand over your passwords and keys to the NSA, don't ever vote or write to your representatives" but we're in a discussion over who you should be worried about spying on you more - non-specific "China" or some domestic intelligence services (or an alliance of a few "friendly" countries). I think your comment is rooted in a sort of common belief that America is, for all its faults, just plain more decent and just than those scary foreign places - along the lines of American Exceptionalism. You even mention they can "change your opinions without you even noticing" - this is basically the Korean War propaganda about communist "brainwashing" techniques. The sad reality is both USA and China are willing spy on people, if you're based in the USA you should really care more about the USA's attempts at surveillance than China's. edit: you deleted your reply before I could post mine. It seemed like I pissed you off a bit so I was trying to clarify and apologise a bit. Here's what I wrote: > You did though Well I said that they're untouchable and was then trying to clarify that we should still be pretty pissed off about it. I wrote the original at half-past midnight, it was a little clumsily worded. But you do have to accept that they are currently nearly untouchable and effectively operate outside the law and that right now you can do very little at all about what data is being collected on you. > I don’t think that is a favorable interpretation I don't think it is unfavourable at all, the only thing you've really stated there about why you'd be worried about any Chinese intelligence is that they can manipulate your beliefs without your knowing. You have to admit that there's at least a bit of a similarity with the hysteria around communist brainwashing. I'm sorry for causing any offence, I know it's not nice to feel like someone's accusing you of being a fervent nationalist (not my intent) but as an outsider your last couple of comments do have that air of "America is just ... better" and contained a slightly naive belief that you'd have any kind of hope taking on NSA or any other big TLA. I'll grant that what China would do with the data it collects on its citizens is likely far more severe than what the USA would (e.g. I don't think you're gonna be locked up for posting a an anti-Biden meme in USA, but sharing Xi Jinping as Winnie the Pooh in China will get you in a lot of hot water) so if that's what you meant then fair enough. I still don't think Chinese spying should be higher up on your list of worries than NSA spying - and in the grand scheme of things there are things you can worry about that you can actually change.

shakow 4y ago

But there are very little chance that China cares about you, whereas your local intelligence agency may have a much more direct impact on you. > but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them If we learned anything from the last half-century, it's that this predicate is just comically wrong.

bailoon 4y ago

> I'd rather be spied on by a western democracy than China. Why? What has china done that's worse? Did they nuke a country? Wipe out entire races of people? Did those nasty chinese invade dozens of countries? There is nothing inherent in a western democracy that makes it good. > Our intelligence agencies are out of control but there's still better mechanisms for reigning them in than China. There are no mechanisms for controlling any intelligence agencies. All intelligence agencies around the world are state actors. No law applies to them. Ask the people the intelligence agencies murdered, drugged, experimented on, etc. Unless you are chinese, you are far better off being "spied on" by the chinese than a western democracy because the chinese don't have any jurisdiction over you. This is all common sense. China isn't going to arrest you and put you in jail. A western democracy will though.

philliphaydon 4y ago
> China isn't going to arrest you and put you in jail. Unless you’re Chinese. Now that we know China has secret police stations all round the world.
- bailoon 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - bailoon 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 4y ago
        We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Flamewar and personal attack aren't allowed here. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.