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Can you name a single other instance in history where a country at war significantly damaged its ability to raise money for the war to “send a message”? What ex

Can you name a single other instance in history where a country at war significantly damaged its ability to raise money for the war to “send a message”? What exactly is the message? The US didn’t think Russia had a submersible and some C4 and now they do?

tomohawk 4y ago
In WWI, Germany attacked France, it's largest trading partner.
- zosima 4y ago
  Germany declared war on Russia which was allied with France. And Germany did not declare war on any of those countries out of will, but due to an alliance with the Austro-Hungarian empire. The situation is not even remotely comparable.
  - smcl 4y ago
    So ... Germany declared war on Russia knowing it would involve fighting France then. Not sure how this changes things unless the alliance was a secret
    - 9dev 4y ago
      As parent said, Germany didn’t declare war willingly, they had no choice but supporting the alliance. You cannot just change sides in war as it suits you.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        For starters, Germany declared war on Russia five days before Austria-Hungary did. But even if it were otherwise, they still had a choice whether to honor their obligations or not. Furthermore, there's substantial evidence that Germany - or rather, some German factions - was very specifically pressuring Austria into a war, precisely so that it could then be "joined": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#The_German_%22Blank_Cheque%22_(1%E2%80%936_July) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#The_German_%22Blan...
vadiml 4y ago
Well, a strategic goal to let Europeans suffer during winter in order to shatter our resolve to support Ukraine, while avoiding contractual penalties for unilateral cessation of gaz delivery, can explain the benefit of exploding the pipeline. This can explain also the fact that the fourth pipe was left intact - as a potential carrot to Europe... I do not pretend that the above is truth, but it seams to be a plausible explanation.
- smcl 4y ago
  I don't see why this is so downvoted. People are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to discount the possibility of Russian sabotage here and I really don't understand why that is. Nothing is certain, but I think it's silly to discount Russia being responsible it for the reasons people are giving.
  - ed25519FUUU 4y ago
    I’m genuinely curious where the gymnastic is? I am asking in good faith. What is Russia’s interest in sabotaging it? They can’t sell gas to fund their war machine. What’s the US interest? Now Europe must buy LNG from our fantastic gas companies. US exports of LNG are at an all time high price. Europe is pissed off at our rival. Not to mention our commander in chief threatened to blow it up, why? Everything here says it’s in the interest of the USA, not Russia. I don’t feel like I’m bending any logic, in fact I feel like this is the only common sense way to think about it.
    - macintux 4y ago
      Russia is the only country who could do it without risking provoking a war. Russia knew they weren’t going to make any money on it due to the strong reaction to the war on Ukraine. Russia could have decided to do it to remind Western Europe that it could do the same to other pipelines they depend on. None of that is determinative that Russia did do it, but it’s sufficient to me to indicate that they could have done it, and insisting that it’s absurd is, well, absurd.
aredox 4y ago
Pacific atolls could be tourism paradise, but many were used Instead to test atom bombs.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- trefoiled 4y ago
  As a response to the above challenge, this is quite the stretch
macintux 4y ago
That scale of sabotage wasn’t a casual act. Russia knew Europe was going to shut down its imports anyway, so perhaps it was a threat, but one that didn’t involve casus belli. Russia was the only country that could do that without risk of widening the war. I’m not saying they did do it, but I see no reason for everyone to insist it’s obviously false.
usrusr 4y ago
Russia comes to mind, in the weeks before the explosions when they launched a ridiculous cascade of excuses about why they can't fulfill contracts on the existing, undamaged pipe. They quite literally left huge amounts of money on the table only to send a message. Must have been difficult, internally, to keep up.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> The US didn’t think Russia had a submersible and some C4 and now they do? The US wasn’t the target, European powers were, and the message was about will (though like other Russian threats over the same policy issue, it was a false message, despite the dramatic form), more than material capacity.
postingawayonhn 4y ago
That they could destroy other pipelines like those coming from Norway.
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  Russia sabotaging OTHER countries makes a lot of sense. Russia sabotaging itself on the other hand…

tomohawk 4y ago

In WWI, Germany attacked France, it's largest trading partner.

zosima 4y ago
Germany declared war on Russia which was allied with France. And Germany did not declare war on any of those countries out of will, but due to an alliance with the Austro-Hungarian empire. The situation is not even remotely comparable.
- smcl 4y ago
  So ... Germany declared war on Russia knowing it would involve fighting France then. Not sure how this changes things unless the alliance was a secret
  - 9dev 4y ago
    As parent said, Germany didn’t declare war willingly, they had no choice but supporting the alliance. You cannot just change sides in war as it suits you.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      For starters, Germany declared war on Russia five days before Austria-Hungary did. But even if it were otherwise, they still had a choice whether to honor their obligations or not. Furthermore, there's substantial evidence that Germany - or rather, some German factions - was very specifically pressuring Austria into a war, precisely so that it could then be "joined": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#The_German_%22Blank_Cheque%22_(1%E2%80%936_July) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#The_German_%22Blan...

vadiml 4y ago

Well, a strategic goal to let Europeans suffer during winter in order to shatter our resolve to support Ukraine, while avoiding contractual penalties for unilateral cessation of gaz delivery, can explain the benefit of exploding the pipeline. This can explain also the fact that the fourth pipe was left intact - as a potential carrot to Europe... I do not pretend that the above is truth, but it seams to be a plausible explanation.

smcl 4y ago
I don't see why this is so downvoted. People are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to discount the possibility of Russian sabotage here and I really don't understand why that is. Nothing is certain, but I think it's silly to discount Russia being responsible it for the reasons people are giving.
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  I’m genuinely curious where the gymnastic is? I am asking in good faith. What is Russia’s interest in sabotaging it? They can’t sell gas to fund their war machine. What’s the US interest? Now Europe must buy LNG from our fantastic gas companies. US exports of LNG are at an all time high price. Europe is pissed off at our rival. Not to mention our commander in chief threatened to blow it up, why? Everything here says it’s in the interest of the USA, not Russia. I don’t feel like I’m bending any logic, in fact I feel like this is the only common sense way to think about it.
  - macintux 4y ago
    Russia is the only country who could do it without risking provoking a war. Russia knew they weren’t going to make any money on it due to the strong reaction to the war on Ukraine. Russia could have decided to do it to remind Western Europe that it could do the same to other pipelines they depend on. None of that is determinative that Russia did do it, but it’s sufficient to me to indicate that they could have done it, and insisting that it’s absurd is, well, absurd.

aredox 4y ago

Pacific atolls could be tourism paradise, but many were used Instead to test atom bombs.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
trefoiled 4y ago
As a response to the above challenge, this is quite the stretch

macintux 4y ago

That scale of sabotage wasn’t a casual act. Russia knew Europe was going to shut down its imports anyway, so perhaps it was a threat, but one that didn’t involve casus belli. Russia was the only country that could do that without risk of widening the war. I’m not saying they did do it, but I see no reason for everyone to insist it’s obviously false.

usrusr 4y ago

Russia comes to mind, in the weeks before the explosions when they launched a ridiculous cascade of excuses about why they can't fulfill contracts on the existing, undamaged pipe. They quite literally left huge amounts of money on the table only to send a message. Must have been difficult, internally, to keep up.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> The US didn’t think Russia had a submersible and some C4 and now they do? The US wasn’t the target, European powers were, and the message was about will (though like other Russian threats over the same policy issue, it was a false message, despite the dramatic form), more than material capacity.

postingawayonhn 4y ago

That they could destroy other pipelines like those coming from Norway.

ed25519FUUU 4y ago
Russia sabotaging OTHER countries makes a lot of sense. Russia sabotaging itself on the other hand…