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> a High School (This is going to sound like we're playing Sim City 2000) but don't forget to add a hospital (a proper one, with an emergency room), a fire sta

> a High School (This is going to sound like we're playing Sim City 2000) but don't forget to add a hospital (a proper one, with an emergency room), a fire station, a police station... > a grocery store Are there many neighbourhoods which don't already have some kind of grocery store?

Qworg 4y ago
According to the USDA, about 6.2% (19M) Americans have limited/no access to a grocery store. https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts covers the research (and links to the paper).
- logifail 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but I've read that article twice and I'm still not sure what they're actually saying. Are we talking about neighbourhoods not having a store selling fresh fruit and vegetables, or not having a grocery store of any kind?
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    It's pretty clever - they use SNAP benefits as a proxy (you can buy what they call staples; fruits/veggies, bread, meat & fish, milk, etc but no hot or prepared food: https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/snap/SNAP-Staple-Foods.pdf https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/snap/SNAP-...) but they map to all of the stores who accept SNAP and combine that with a map of supermarkets from a Nielson directory. They then map the number of census tracts and compare against that map -- the 6.2% figure is the "1 and 10" method which counts households >1 mile from a store in an urban area and >10 miles in a rural one. https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/82101/eib-165.pdf?v=3395.3 https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/82101/eib-165....
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Being more than 10 miles from a real market of some sort in an actual rural area seems a pretty low bar. Population density is certainly lower but 10 miles isn't very far if you need to drive to the next town over.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        It's not just 10 miles, it's 10 miles and being a low income tract which they define as average household income below 80% of state median or >20% households in the tract being below the poverty line. So trying to measure where the poorest areas have the most limited access.
        ghaff 4y ago
        I'm guessing the income criteria is satisfied in a lot of rural areas however.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Yeah, you're not wrong, here's the 2010 map; https://assets.aecf.org/m/blogimg/blog-exploringamericasfooddeserts-2021.png https://assets.aecf.org/m/blogimg/blog-exploringamericasfood...
        ghaff 4y ago
        That map looks to me as if it's much more about poorer rural areas that are more than 10 miles from a grocery store than inner cities.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        It's as misleading in that way as the big silly maps they show around election time -- since we care about the number of people, not the number of acres. There are 19 million people in the shaded areas. If we bump up the criteria to 1 mile urban / 20 miles rural, it's still over 17 million people, so clearly a lot of the people at discussion are in urban areas. Even so, it looks like another half million people are over 20 miles from a store who don't have access to a vehicle. Not great!
ry4nolson 4y ago
> Are there many neighbourhoods which don't already have some kind of grocery store? Tons. They're called food deserts.
trillic 4y ago
They're called food deserts and they exist all over the United States. Even in big cities. They are not the same as a food dessert.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Food deserts can also be looked at as cheap (in time or money or both) transportation deserts.
- logifail 4y ago
  > They're called food deserts and they exist all over the United States. Even in big cities. Wiki (sorry) appears to define that as "an area that has limited access to affordable and nutritious food" I appreciate their point, but "no grocery store" really isn't the same as "limited access to affordable and nutritious food".
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    >no grocery store" really isn't the same as "limited access to affordable and nutritious food". Without a grocery store you are at best in a "pick one" situation, at least in the US.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    The "limited access to affordable and nutritious food" criteria is primarily to distinguish between having a Safeway-type grocery store nearby versus only having a Plaid Pantry/7-11/Circle K where you can buy a gallon of milk and maybe a loaf of bread but it's nothing like a proper grocery store.
ghaff 4y ago
It probably depends on what you mean by "grocery store." In dense urban areas, bodegas, chain convenience stores, and pharmacies with a small grocery section are pretty plentiful. Supermarkets a lot less so. That's probably part of a shift over time. In general, we probably have more relatively large but spread out businesses than little mom and pop places on every corner. (This is sort of a US comment. There seem to be more serviceable smallish grocery stores in Europe that are in between a supermarket and a convenience store. That's less common in the US other than one-off markets and sometimes downsized chain grocery stores.)
- logifail 4y ago
  > It probably depends on what you mean by "grocery store." In dense urban areas, bodegas, chain convenience stores, and pharmacies with a small grocery section are pretty plentiful. Supermarkets a lot less so. That's probably part of a shift over time. In general, we probably have more relatively large but spread out businesses than little mom and pop places on every corner. (This is sort of a US comment. There seem to be more serviceable smallish grocery stores in Europe that are in between a supermarket and a convenience sore. That's less common in the US other than one-off markets.) While on a business trip I stopped at a petrol (gas) station in the UK a couple of weeks ago, the sort on the side of a major road outside a city, and with a mini-supermarket attached, and was literally speechless when I realised they had a whole shelf rack containing gluten-free products. I have coeliac disease, and had been assuming I'd have to travel specially to some large supermarket to get the stuff I can eat, but thanks to this place I grabbed loaf of gluten-free bread and a pack of gluten-free cornflakes, and I was good to go. I'm discovering that coeliac and mid-range hotels don't always mix :/
- LeanderK 4y ago
  In europe, you often have mid to normal-sized supermarkets near public transit since a lot want to grab a few groceries after work. I wonder what "chain convenience stores" are...are they more geared towards snacks? Mid-sized supermarkets are all over the cities in europe I would say. You usually visit a bigger supermarket once a week, but you can get everything in the smaller ones, from fruits and vegetables to pasta. They are really there to fulfil your everyday needs and you don't strictly need to visit a bigger one. Many don't because it's so convenient, but they tend to be a bit more expensive. Mid-sized supermarkets are part of my everyday life and I wonder why they are not more common in the US.
dylan604 4y ago
Yes, there's a term called "food desert" that exists for a reason. Think inner city areas. Parts of the town that are attempting to be "gentrified" (in whatever discriminating tone that word implies) where there were places to live, but stores were more than 15 mins by car. it was just yet another reminder of how city planning is anything but good.
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micromacrofoot 4y ago
Yes, these are called food deserts, some people "grocery shop" at Walgreens, 7-11, Rite Aid, or CVS and have very limited access to fresh produce.

Qworg 4y ago

According to the USDA, about 6.2% (19M) Americans have limited/no access to a grocery store. https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts covers the research (and links to the paper).

logifail 4y ago
I'm sorry, but I've read that article twice and I'm still not sure what they're actually saying. Are we talking about neighbourhoods not having a store selling fresh fruit and vegetables, or not having a grocery store of any kind?
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  It's pretty clever - they use SNAP benefits as a proxy (you can buy what they call staples; fruits/veggies, bread, meat & fish, milk, etc but no hot or prepared food: https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/snap/SNAP-Staple-Foods.pdf https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/snap/SNAP-...) but they map to all of the stores who accept SNAP and combine that with a map of supermarkets from a Nielson directory. They then map the number of census tracts and compare against that map -- the 6.2% figure is the "1 and 10" method which counts households >1 mile from a store in an urban area and >10 miles in a rural one. https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/82101/eib-165.pdf?v=3395.3 https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/82101/eib-165....
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Being more than 10 miles from a real market of some sort in an actual rural area seems a pretty low bar. Population density is certainly lower but 10 miles isn't very far if you need to drive to the next town over.
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      It's not just 10 miles, it's 10 miles and being a low income tract which they define as average household income below 80% of state median or >20% households in the tract being below the poverty line. So trying to measure where the poorest areas have the most limited access.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        I'm guessing the income criteria is satisfied in a lot of rural areas however.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Yeah, you're not wrong, here's the 2010 map; https://assets.aecf.org/m/blogimg/blog-exploringamericasfooddeserts-2021.png https://assets.aecf.org/m/blogimg/blog-exploringamericasfood...
        ghaff 4y ago
        That map looks to me as if it's much more about poorer rural areas that are more than 10 miles from a grocery store than inner cities.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        It's as misleading in that way as the big silly maps they show around election time -- since we care about the number of people, not the number of acres. There are 19 million people in the shaded areas. If we bump up the criteria to 1 mile urban / 20 miles rural, it's still over 17 million people, so clearly a lot of the people at discussion are in urban areas. Even so, it looks like another half million people are over 20 miles from a store who don't have access to a vehicle. Not great!

ry4nolson 4y ago

> Are there many neighbourhoods which don't already have some kind of grocery store? Tons. They're called food deserts.

trillic 4y ago

They're called food deserts and they exist all over the United States. Even in big cities. They are not the same as a food dessert.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Food deserts can also be looked at as cheap (in time or money or both) transportation deserts.
logifail 4y ago
> They're called food deserts and they exist all over the United States. Even in big cities. Wiki (sorry) appears to define that as "an area that has limited access to affordable and nutritious food" I appreciate their point, but "no grocery store" really isn't the same as "limited access to affordable and nutritious food".
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >no grocery store" really isn't the same as "limited access to affordable and nutritious food". Without a grocery store you are at best in a "pick one" situation, at least in the US.
- brewdad 4y ago
  The "limited access to affordable and nutritious food" criteria is primarily to distinguish between having a Safeway-type grocery store nearby versus only having a Plaid Pantry/7-11/Circle K where you can buy a gallon of milk and maybe a loaf of bread but it's nothing like a proper grocery store.

ghaff 4y ago

It probably depends on what you mean by "grocery store." In dense urban areas, bodegas, chain convenience stores, and pharmacies with a small grocery section are pretty plentiful. Supermarkets a lot less so. That's probably part of a shift over time. In general, we probably have more relatively large but spread out businesses than little mom and pop places on every corner. (This is sort of a US comment. There seem to be more serviceable smallish grocery stores in Europe that are in between a supermarket and a convenience store. That's less common in the US other than one-off markets and sometimes downsized chain grocery stores.)

logifail 4y ago
> It probably depends on what you mean by "grocery store." In dense urban areas, bodegas, chain convenience stores, and pharmacies with a small grocery section are pretty plentiful. Supermarkets a lot less so. That's probably part of a shift over time. In general, we probably have more relatively large but spread out businesses than little mom and pop places on every corner. (This is sort of a US comment. There seem to be more serviceable smallish grocery stores in Europe that are in between a supermarket and a convenience sore. That's less common in the US other than one-off markets.) While on a business trip I stopped at a petrol (gas) station in the UK a couple of weeks ago, the sort on the side of a major road outside a city, and with a mini-supermarket attached, and was literally speechless when I realised they had a whole shelf rack containing gluten-free products. I have coeliac disease, and had been assuming I'd have to travel specially to some large supermarket to get the stuff I can eat, but thanks to this place I grabbed loaf of gluten-free bread and a pack of gluten-free cornflakes, and I was good to go. I'm discovering that coeliac and mid-range hotels don't always mix :/
LeanderK 4y ago
In europe, you often have mid to normal-sized supermarkets near public transit since a lot want to grab a few groceries after work. I wonder what "chain convenience stores" are...are they more geared towards snacks? Mid-sized supermarkets are all over the cities in europe I would say. You usually visit a bigger supermarket once a week, but you can get everything in the smaller ones, from fruits and vegetables to pasta. They are really there to fulfil your everyday needs and you don't strictly need to visit a bigger one. Many don't because it's so convenient, but they tend to be a bit more expensive. Mid-sized supermarkets are part of my everyday life and I wonder why they are not more common in the US.

dylan604 4y ago

Yes, there's a term called "food desert" that exists for a reason. Think inner city areas. Parts of the town that are attempting to be "gentrified" (in whatever discriminating tone that word implies) where there were places to live, but stores were more than 15 mins by car. it was just yet another reminder of how city planning is anything but good.

deleted 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

micromacrofoot 4y ago

Yes, these are called food deserts, some people "grocery shop" at Walgreens, 7-11, Rite Aid, or CVS and have very limited access to fresh produce.