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> Rust can already be very arcane to decipher sometimes, especially when you start getting errors from async libraries. For what it's worth, the community, lib

> Rust can already be very arcane to decipher sometimes, especially when you start getting errors from async libraries. For what it's worth, the community, library authors, and most importantly the language design teams are all very aware of this. And there's efforts being made to make all these pain points things more ergonomics and approachable. I think it just a slower process than we'd like. I think in part it's so slow might be due to how the decision making and work is structured; it's very open, but also slow. Stuff like GATs took ages to design and implement, and yeet and parts of async are similar. These are done very carefully and they also let decisions marinate for a while before further action. It's not a critique, since I think it's good and wouldn't know a recommendation to speed it up. So, it's getting better, but slowly

flumpcakes 4y ago
I think GATs in Rust are really cool. Just like template meta programming in C++ is really cool (despite the countless articles on why it shouldn't be used by mere mortals in production code--it's too powerful and unwieldy!). I worry that Rust will become just as arcane as C++ but will look better at a surface level because it has modern and sane defaults and not 40 years of baggage. Perhaps I'm worried I'm just not smart enough to be a Rust programmer. Off topic: I also find the Rust community unwelcoming and very clique-ish, I get the very strong "you're not apart of the cool gang" vibes and I'm too old to care to navigate this.
- spoiler 4y ago
  I do understand what you mean abou complexity creep, and hope it doesn't happen, but also fear that it might in due time. The thing about GAT is that it was never meant to be a feature. It just removes a non-obvious limitation from the language. I remember when learning Rust, I expected "GAT syntax" to just work, and was surprised when it didn't. So, for me it makes the language less arcane. > Perhaps I'm worried I'm just not smart enough to be a Rust programmer. I think everyone can learn anything. It's just a matter of finding the right angle to understand a concept. If something hasn't click, force yourself to use those parts until they do. > Off topic: I also find the Rust community unwelcoming and very clique-ish, I get the very strong "you're not apart of the cool gang" vibes and I'm too old to care to navigate this. Ah maybe. I've not experienced this personally, but I've seen others make similar claims. It's generally aways very welcoming from what I've seen. There's the occasional smartass on their Discord, but that's just... Discord Things(TM). People ignore them, and if they're obnoxious they get called out and asked to chill out a bit. Out of curiosity, what are your main interaction channels/places with the community? Maybe you just accidentally navigated into ones that don't suit you personally
- pdimitar 4y ago
  50 / 50. I find the Rust Users discourse forum to be generally welcoming, though sometimes it seems people find your question too obvious and nobody ever responds. I found that showing that I made an effort and pointing at my source of confusion increases engagement. But it might be sensitive to timezones or such as well, no idea. Rust's Discord however is AMAZINGLY friendly. I've been contacted in DMs by maintainers of very prominent and popular libraries by outlining a problem that I had, in detail. And finally, r/rust I witnessed first-hand being extremely toxic at times. It really depends where you're looking.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    Ah, I don't mean to generalise, but most of my experiences on Reddit have been a mixed bag, often more negative. Regardless of the community. I think it's because there's "no barrier to entry" (ie no special sign up, it's just a button). And the design in general feels like it's more suited for short form quippy comments than chatting or discussions. And I 100% agree that their Discord is great. Also recommend it. I've seen lots of activity on beginner and intermediate questions though. As well as just chatting to people, or helping someone with an interesting problem. I've had a really difficult problem ignored on Discord, but I also think the threading UI on there isn't great for lots of concurrent and unrelated discussions. I just found it frustrating to use. So, maybe some questions fall through the cracks? Managed to resolve it in the end though. However, having typed all this, I realise a wiser thing would've been to ask on StackOverflow instead lol.
pdimitar 4y ago
> I think it just a slower process than we'd like I arrived at the same conclusion. I have faith in Rust's maintainers and I know things can't happen as quickly as I'd like them to. I am still human and can rage when something doesn't go my way -- and it looks easy to me as a side observer -- but I don't judge and I applaud the team's dedication and rigor.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
For what it's worth, the C++ maintainers are aware of how arcane and indecipherable their language of choice is, too. The process is even slower because there is a lot of C++ code out there that can't take the same level of change whiplash that Rust changes give you.

flumpcakes 4y ago

I think GATs in Rust are really cool. Just like template meta programming in C++ is really cool (despite the countless articles on why it shouldn't be used by mere mortals in production code--it's too powerful and unwieldy!). I worry that Rust will become just as arcane as C++ but will look better at a surface level because it has modern and sane defaults and not 40 years of baggage. Perhaps I'm worried I'm just not smart enough to be a Rust programmer. Off topic: I also find the Rust community unwelcoming and very clique-ish, I get the very strong "you're not apart of the cool gang" vibes and I'm too old to care to navigate this.

spoiler 4y ago
I do understand what you mean abou complexity creep, and hope it doesn't happen, but also fear that it might in due time. The thing about GAT is that it was never meant to be a feature. It just removes a non-obvious limitation from the language. I remember when learning Rust, I expected "GAT syntax" to just work, and was surprised when it didn't. So, for me it makes the language less arcane. > Perhaps I'm worried I'm just not smart enough to be a Rust programmer. I think everyone can learn anything. It's just a matter of finding the right angle to understand a concept. If something hasn't click, force yourself to use those parts until they do. > Off topic: I also find the Rust community unwelcoming and very clique-ish, I get the very strong "you're not apart of the cool gang" vibes and I'm too old to care to navigate this. Ah maybe. I've not experienced this personally, but I've seen others make similar claims. It's generally aways very welcoming from what I've seen. There's the occasional smartass on their Discord, but that's just... Discord Things(TM). People ignore them, and if they're obnoxious they get called out and asked to chill out a bit. Out of curiosity, what are your main interaction channels/places with the community? Maybe you just accidentally navigated into ones that don't suit you personally
pdimitar 4y ago
50 / 50. I find the Rust Users discourse forum to be generally welcoming, though sometimes it seems people find your question too obvious and nobody ever responds. I found that showing that I made an effort and pointing at my source of confusion increases engagement. But it might be sensitive to timezones or such as well, no idea. Rust's Discord however is AMAZINGLY friendly. I've been contacted in DMs by maintainers of very prominent and popular libraries by outlining a problem that I had, in detail. And finally, r/rust I witnessed first-hand being extremely toxic at times. It really depends where you're looking.
- spoiler 4y ago
  Ah, I don't mean to generalise, but most of my experiences on Reddit have been a mixed bag, often more negative. Regardless of the community. I think it's because there's "no barrier to entry" (ie no special sign up, it's just a button). And the design in general feels like it's more suited for short form quippy comments than chatting or discussions. And I 100% agree that their Discord is great. Also recommend it. I've seen lots of activity on beginner and intermediate questions though. As well as just chatting to people, or helping someone with an interesting problem. I've had a really difficult problem ignored on Discord, but I also think the threading UI on there isn't great for lots of concurrent and unrelated discussions. I just found it frustrating to use. So, maybe some questions fall through the cracks? Managed to resolve it in the end though. However, having typed all this, I realise a wiser thing would've been to ask on StackOverflow instead lol.

pdimitar 4y ago

> I think it just a slower process than we'd like I arrived at the same conclusion. I have faith in Rust's maintainers and I know things can't happen as quickly as I'd like them to. I am still human and can rage when something doesn't go my way -- and it looks easy to me as a side observer -- but I don't judge and I applaud the team's dedication and rigor.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

For what it's worth, the C++ maintainers are aware of how arcane and indecipherable their language of choice is, too. The process is even slower because there is a lot of C++ code out there that can't take the same level of change whiplash that Rust changes give you.