4 ms·

OpenBSD: Why and How

67 points by signa11 4y ago

2b3a51 4y ago
I make casual use of OpenBSD as a desktop on a selection of Thinkpads (BIOS era), sometimes with a full desktop (xfce4) and sometimes sort of minimal (default fvwm with a Web browser). I reinstall each version to see what has changed and how things are going. It gets better each time. I'm grateful that such a project exists.
- chasil 4y ago
  There two more window managers in OpenBSD base, cwm and twm. The twm manager is quite old, and well-known in the X community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twm The cwm manager uses many keyboard controls. It has a steeper learning curve, but a familiar user can be much more productive with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_(window_manager) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_(window_manager)
dark-star 4y ago
> Hardware I couldn’t get working in Linux just works on a first try with OpenBSD. I have tried OpenBSD (and FreeBSD) a couple of times in the past on a spare Laptop I had lying around, and my experience was the exact opposite. With Linux, everything just worked out of the box: X11, HDMI port, Wifi, LAN, touchpad, cardreader, SD reader, sound, media keys, all except the fingerprint reader. With the BSDs on the other hand, it was always a hit-oor-miss. Sometimes sound didn't work. Or the display couldn't properly switch when plugging in an external monitor. The touchpad worked only partially, etc. I mean, sure, I can edit the Xorg.conf file like I did on Linux some 15 years ago to try and get the touchpad working, but honestly, these days that just feels like a giant step backwards for me for such basic functionality. I wonder if I just keep trying it on the wrong hardware (Dell laptops instead of Thinkpads) and if that's the reason for having these issues
- anthk 4y ago
  >With BSDs That like saying Linux and Android. Sorry, they are not comparable at all. FreeBSD uses modules, OpenBSD doesn't. FreeBSD uses X, OpenBSD uses Xenocara, a fork. FreeBSD's X.org setup can be madness, OpenBSD with XFCE it's ridiculously simple. For instance, ACPI keys for brightness under OpenBSD work everywhere, not just under X. >Touchpad You must do that under Linux too, in order to use the working Synaptics module for X.org (for some laptops) instead of libinput/evdev or whatever is called today. It happened to me. Default module: jumping cursor, unusable. It worked as if it were an absolute device to the screen instead of relative movement. Synaptics: working.
  - dark-star 4y ago
    >That like saying Linux and Android [...] I'm well aware that they are not the same, but I tried both FreeBSD and OpenBSD, and for simplicity I consolidated them in my post. Sorry if that offended you. > You must do that under Linux too The touchpad worked flawlessly out of the box for me (on Manjaro), including two-finger scrolling and tap-to-click. No idea what driver it uses though All in all, the original post encouraged me to try OpenBSD again soon(ish), who knows, maybe it works better these days...
  - dark-star 4y ago
    Okay, I just spent about 2 hours trying to get OpenBSD 7.2 (amd64) working on my laptop (Dell Latitude E6540). Things I noticed: - The installer worked fine - It detected the WWAN and WiFi cards, although it couldn't get the WiFi working due to missing firmware (that was expected) - The installer complained that the USB image was insecure because it was missing a SHA256 signature for the files. I re-downloaded it from a different mirror but that was bit-for-bit identical to the one I had, so I think this is probably just a bug in the installer (or image) Installation went quick and I was met with a "Congratulations" message, where I opted to reboot. After that, the laptop entered a boot loop, with every reboot resulting in it rebooting again right after the BIOS logo, without even as much as a text screen/boot loader showing. I figured it might be because I installed as GPT (which was what the installer suggested) even though my BIOS is set to legacy boot. So I re-did the installation, this time choosing "whole disk (MBR)" instead of "whole disk (GPT)". The reboot loop didn't happen again, but it still couldn't boot from the disk, no text output, nothing, just the big BIOS logo and half a second of flashing the HDD LED, then silence. Trying the BIOS-integrated boot menu (F12) hung the whole laptop unless I removed the harddisk. The disk itself is fine though (I gave it a quick run-down on my desktop system) and another disk with Linux on it still boots without issue. So yeah, maybe OpenBSD probably isn't right for me if I expect as much as a basic, working system after installation shrug
- chasil 4y ago
  Older 802.11g adaptors that work in OpenBSD have largely been removed from Ubuntu. RedHat removes older SAS RAID controllers and other random hardware they dislike that Oracle includes in the UEK (which is much more straightforward than a tainted module from ElRepo). Each of these has a focus, and a specialization. Knowing them is half the battle.
  - doubled112 4y ago
    Knowing is half the battle. RedHat's kernel annoys me in ways others tend not to. I used to think "Red Hat is basically Fedora, but old(/tested)" but that's one place they are pretty different. They strip kernel modules out for a fair amount of hardware, instead of just stating it is unsupported. It makes sense from a business perspective, but I've found myself surprised by it a couple of times. There's a big difference between not supporting it and disabling it completely. On the flip side, their version number is near useless at a glance due to the number of backports.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      not just hardware, but also things like filesystems and probably other things too. i used to go with centos as my preferred server operating system due to its long release cycles, but when redhat removed btrfs from the kernel i was forced to switch to debian as the next most reliable and longterm supported server operating system.
- quectophoton 4y ago
  [dead]
- brudgers 4y ago
  Most likely, it's just not for you. What I mean is that I think I've read that Sivers has been using BSD for a couple of decades and has a Postgres archive of all his email going back to the 90's...or something like that. But I could be wrong and am not in the mood to research it. My point is that his use case has different goals than most people's...e.g. stability and avoiding figuring out how to use different systems for the sake of using new-to-him systems. It's like EMACS. Not for everyone. Some people use it sometimes. Some people use it more. Some people have been living in it since before GUI's. But, I would always start with a Thinkpad.
  - dark-star 4y ago
    I just tried to install it, and it wouldn't even boot from disk, not even a bootloader showing up or anything. Just hangs the whole laptop. So yeah, it's probably just not for me, as I'm not really keen on trobleshooting bootloader issues on a very basic system setup...
knorker 4y ago
This should be marked [2018]
thomashabets2 4y ago
I did a writeup back in 2019: https://blog.habets.se/2019/10/OpenBSD-in-2019.html https://blog.habets.se/2019/10/OpenBSD-in-2019.html I disagree that it "just works". It my experience it has a bunch of easily fixable things. The things that don't just work in Linux are months long projects, requiring special skill. But with OpenBSD I've found a few things (in userland and kernel) where I go "hey, I can fix that", and I have.
rbc 4y ago
It's small time, but I've switched to OpenBSD for all my personal/friends/family web sites, hosting email, and virtualization. The laundry list of used services include nsd, unbound, httpd, relayd, smtpd, and spamd. The kernel WireGuard support is very useful. OpenBSD is modern, but not over complicated. That's why I like it.
anthk 4y ago
Boringly easy to setup. The defaults work, unlike FreeBSD which requires an extensive setup to get a desktop. The documentation it's clear and you can actually work with FVWM and lxappearance to set some theme from b00merang mimicking Solaris8/9 Motif/OpenLook. If not, installing xfce and the extras and reading /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/ it's a breeze. The most extensive setup you will need to do it's to boost up some limits at /etc/login.conf (memory limits). And, well, the locale for X in ~/.xinitrc. Specially for Firefox and Chrome. Not much more.
Zurrrrr 4y ago
I don't see much point in OBSD to be honest. Most of the claims to security are bogus (auditing is great, but it's not a reason to omit actual security features). NetBSD has honestly seen much more interesting to me, cleaner tighter code, and some security features that look really interesting to play with.
- anthk 4y ago
  NetBSD it's a disaster with 2 different X.org's being shipped. I know to do that to support alien platforms, but still difficult to set.
  - 2b3a51 4y ago
    Which Xorg would I be using for an X86_64 based core duo thinkpad with i915 graphics? I've had little success with NetBSD 9.3 so far (Firefox needs 3d graphics these days) but I'm assuming I'm missing something.
    - anthk 4y ago
      Modular one.
      - 2b3a51 4y ago
        Thanks for reply I will look into that
- accrual 4y ago
  Which security features are omitted that you would like to see in OpenBSD?
  - Zurrrrr 4y ago
    Stuff like KUBSAN, KASAN, KMSAN, KCSAN which detect problems at runtime. There isn't anything even close in other OSs. Something like VeriExec would be nice as well. And while NetBSD doesn't have it either, some type of MAC or RBAC implementation would also be welcome.

67 points by signa11 4y ago

I make casual use of OpenBSD as a desktop on a selection of Thinkpads (BIOS era), sometimes with a full desktop (xfce4) and sometimes sort of minimal (default fvwm with a Web browser). I reinstall each version to see what has changed and how things are going. It gets better each time. I'm grateful that such a project exists.

chasil 4y ago
There two more window managers in OpenBSD base, cwm and twm. The twm manager is quite old, and well-known in the X community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twm The cwm manager uses many keyboard controls. It has a steeper learning curve, but a familiar user can be much more productive with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_(window_manager) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_(window_manager)

dark-star 4y ago

> Hardware I couldn’t get working in Linux just works on a first try with OpenBSD. I have tried OpenBSD (and FreeBSD) a couple of times in the past on a spare Laptop I had lying around, and my experience was the exact opposite. With Linux, everything just worked out of the box: X11, HDMI port, Wifi, LAN, touchpad, cardreader, SD reader, sound, media keys, all except the fingerprint reader. With the BSDs on the other hand, it was always a hit-oor-miss. Sometimes sound didn't work. Or the display couldn't properly switch when plugging in an external monitor. The touchpad worked only partially, etc. I mean, sure, I can edit the Xorg.conf file like I did on Linux some 15 years ago to try and get the touchpad working, but honestly, these days that just feels like a giant step backwards for me for such basic functionality. I wonder if I just keep trying it on the wrong hardware (Dell laptops instead of Thinkpads) and if that's the reason for having these issues

anthk 4y ago
>With BSDs That like saying Linux and Android. Sorry, they are not comparable at all. FreeBSD uses modules, OpenBSD doesn't. FreeBSD uses X, OpenBSD uses Xenocara, a fork. FreeBSD's X.org setup can be madness, OpenBSD with XFCE it's ridiculously simple. For instance, ACPI keys for brightness under OpenBSD work everywhere, not just under X. >Touchpad You must do that under Linux too, in order to use the working Synaptics module for X.org (for some laptops) instead of libinput/evdev or whatever is called today. It happened to me. Default module: jumping cursor, unusable. It worked as if it were an absolute device to the screen instead of relative movement. Synaptics: working.
- dark-star 4y ago
  >That like saying Linux and Android [...] I'm well aware that they are not the same, but I tried both FreeBSD and OpenBSD, and for simplicity I consolidated them in my post. Sorry if that offended you. > You must do that under Linux too The touchpad worked flawlessly out of the box for me (on Manjaro), including two-finger scrolling and tap-to-click. No idea what driver it uses though All in all, the original post encouraged me to try OpenBSD again soon(ish), who knows, maybe it works better these days...
- dark-star 4y ago
  Okay, I just spent about 2 hours trying to get OpenBSD 7.2 (amd64) working on my laptop (Dell Latitude E6540). Things I noticed: - The installer worked fine - It detected the WWAN and WiFi cards, although it couldn't get the WiFi working due to missing firmware (that was expected) - The installer complained that the USB image was insecure because it was missing a SHA256 signature for the files. I re-downloaded it from a different mirror but that was bit-for-bit identical to the one I had, so I think this is probably just a bug in the installer (or image) Installation went quick and I was met with a "Congratulations" message, where I opted to reboot. After that, the laptop entered a boot loop, with every reboot resulting in it rebooting again right after the BIOS logo, without even as much as a text screen/boot loader showing. I figured it might be because I installed as GPT (which was what the installer suggested) even though my BIOS is set to legacy boot. So I re-did the installation, this time choosing "whole disk (MBR)" instead of "whole disk (GPT)". The reboot loop didn't happen again, but it still couldn't boot from the disk, no text output, nothing, just the big BIOS logo and half a second of flashing the HDD LED, then silence. Trying the BIOS-integrated boot menu (F12) hung the whole laptop unless I removed the harddisk. The disk itself is fine though (I gave it a quick run-down on my desktop system) and another disk with Linux on it still boots without issue. So yeah, maybe OpenBSD probably isn't right for me if I expect as much as a basic, working system after installation shrug
chasil 4y ago
Older 802.11g adaptors that work in OpenBSD have largely been removed from Ubuntu. RedHat removes older SAS RAID controllers and other random hardware they dislike that Oracle includes in the UEK (which is much more straightforward than a tainted module from ElRepo). Each of these has a focus, and a specialization. Knowing them is half the battle.
- doubled112 4y ago
  Knowing is half the battle. RedHat's kernel annoys me in ways others tend not to. I used to think "Red Hat is basically Fedora, but old(/tested)" but that's one place they are pretty different. They strip kernel modules out for a fair amount of hardware, instead of just stating it is unsupported. It makes sense from a business perspective, but I've found myself surprised by it a couple of times. There's a big difference between not supporting it and disabling it completely. On the flip side, their version number is near useless at a glance due to the number of backports.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    not just hardware, but also things like filesystems and probably other things too. i used to go with centos as my preferred server operating system due to its long release cycles, but when redhat removed btrfs from the kernel i was forced to switch to debian as the next most reliable and longterm supported server operating system.
quectophoton 4y ago
[dead]
brudgers 4y ago
Most likely, it's just not for you. What I mean is that I think I've read that Sivers has been using BSD for a couple of decades and has a Postgres archive of all his email going back to the 90's...or something like that. But I could be wrong and am not in the mood to research it. My point is that his use case has different goals than most people's...e.g. stability and avoiding figuring out how to use different systems for the sake of using new-to-him systems. It's like EMACS. Not for everyone. Some people use it sometimes. Some people use it more. Some people have been living in it since before GUI's. But, I would always start with a Thinkpad.
- dark-star 4y ago
  I just tried to install it, and it wouldn't even boot from disk, not even a bootloader showing up or anything. Just hangs the whole laptop. So yeah, it's probably just not for me, as I'm not really keen on trobleshooting bootloader issues on a very basic system setup...

knorker 4y ago

This should be marked [2018]

thomashabets2 4y ago

I did a writeup back in 2019: https://blog.habets.se/2019/10/OpenBSD-in-2019.html https://blog.habets.se/2019/10/OpenBSD-in-2019.html I disagree that it "just works". It my experience it has a bunch of easily fixable things. The things that don't just work in Linux are months long projects, requiring special skill. But with OpenBSD I've found a few things (in userland and kernel) where I go "hey, I can fix that", and I have.

rbc 4y ago

It's small time, but I've switched to OpenBSD for all my personal/friends/family web sites, hosting email, and virtualization. The laundry list of used services include nsd, unbound, httpd, relayd, smtpd, and spamd. The kernel WireGuard support is very useful. OpenBSD is modern, but not over complicated. That's why I like it.

anthk 4y ago

Boringly easy to setup. The defaults work, unlike FreeBSD which requires an extensive setup to get a desktop. The documentation it's clear and you can actually work with FVWM and lxappearance to set some theme from b00merang mimicking Solaris8/9 Motif/OpenLook. If not, installing xfce and the extras and reading /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/ it's a breeze. The most extensive setup you will need to do it's to boost up some limits at /etc/login.conf (memory limits). And, well, the locale for X in ~/.xinitrc. Specially for Firefox and Chrome. Not much more.

Zurrrrr 4y ago

I don't see much point in OBSD to be honest. Most of the claims to security are bogus (auditing is great, but it's not a reason to omit actual security features). NetBSD has honestly seen much more interesting to me, cleaner tighter code, and some security features that look really interesting to play with.

anthk 4y ago
NetBSD it's a disaster with 2 different X.org's being shipped. I know to do that to support alien platforms, but still difficult to set.
- 2b3a51 4y ago
  Which Xorg would I be using for an X86_64 based core duo thinkpad with i915 graphics? I've had little success with NetBSD 9.3 so far (Firefox needs 3d graphics these days) but I'm assuming I'm missing something.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Modular one.
    - 2b3a51 4y ago
      Thanks for reply I will look into that
accrual 4y ago
Which security features are omitted that you would like to see in OpenBSD?
- Zurrrrr 4y ago
  Stuff like KUBSAN, KASAN, KMSAN, KCSAN which detect problems at runtime. There isn't anything even close in other OSs. Something like VeriExec would be nice as well. And while NetBSD doesn't have it either, some type of MAC or RBAC implementation would also be welcome.