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I hope the Thunderbird crew understand how incredibly important this software is and how much some of us depend on it. Good IMAP clients are hard to write and m

I hope the Thunderbird crew understand how incredibly important this software is and how much some of us depend on it. Good IMAP clients are hard to write and most civilians have become so used to crappy browser-based email that there's not much demand for IMAP clients except among people like the ones who frequent this website. Apple ruined their IMAP client ("Mail") a few years ago so now that world is basically Outlook and Thunderbird, and I'm sure I don't need to describe why Outlook is unacceptable.

newscracker 4y ago
> Apple ruined their IMAP client ("Mail") a few years ago Please elaborate on this point. I’d like to know how it was before and how it is now. > so now that world is basically Outlook and Thunderbird, and I'm sure I don't need to describe why Outlook is unacceptable. Please also elaborate on why Outlook is unacceptable. I like hearing different perspectives. I personally don’t use Outlook and don’t like it because it pushed a lot of non-standard things (for want of a broader and better word), is actually slow and painful to use, and exists to satisfy Microsoft’s agenda to make everything proprietary (AFAIK Outlook365/Microsoft365/Exchange Server by default disables IMAP, SMTP and POP citing those as insecure even though they’re usable with OAuth2).
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  My problems with Apple Mail are twofold, and both happened in the last five years. 1. They changed the tabular UI in Mail such that the columns were no longer directly manipulable. For a while they had a setting that allowed you to continue to use the old UI, but that switch is now gone. The new UI is decidedly less functional for me. It reeks of "product manager urination syndrome" where a PM makes his mark by pissing on a good product and ruining it. 2. They introduced a bug that caused data loss on the IMAP server. An email client that destroys data on the server is a dealbreaker for me. I get the impression this has since been fixed, but Apple lost my trust with this one. I switched to Thunderbird. As for Outlook, you expressed the issues better than I could.

newscracker 4y ago

> Apple ruined their IMAP client ("Mail") a few years ago Please elaborate on this point. I’d like to know how it was before and how it is now. > so now that world is basically Outlook and Thunderbird, and I'm sure I don't need to describe why Outlook is unacceptable. Please also elaborate on why Outlook is unacceptable. I like hearing different perspectives. I personally don’t use Outlook and don’t like it because it pushed a lot of non-standard things (for want of a broader and better word), is actually slow and painful to use, and exists to satisfy Microsoft’s agenda to make everything proprietary (AFAIK Outlook365/Microsoft365/Exchange Server by default disables IMAP, SMTP and POP citing those as insecure even though they’re usable with OAuth2).

dreamcompiler 4y ago
My problems with Apple Mail are twofold, and both happened in the last five years. 1. They changed the tabular UI in Mail such that the columns were no longer directly manipulable. For a while they had a setting that allowed you to continue to use the old UI, but that switch is now gone. The new UI is decidedly less functional for me. It reeks of "product manager urination syndrome" where a PM makes his mark by pissing on a good product and ruining it. 2. They introduced a bug that caused data loss on the IMAP server. An email client that destroys data on the server is a dealbreaker for me. I get the impression this has since been fixed, but Apple lost my trust with this one. I switched to Thunderbird. As for Outlook, you expressed the issues better than I could.