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Yeah, Mr. Bright, usually I think you’ve got your head screwed on pretty well, but this is a religious statement, not a matter of fact. 1. Find me a free marke

Yeah, Mr. Bright, usually I think you’ve got your head screwed on pretty well, but this is a religious statement, not a matter of fact. 1. Find me a free market. Otherwise we’re just going to devolve into “no true Scotsman.” The USA, for instance, is light years from a free market in basically every respect. 2. In a truly free market the way to maximize profits is to create and maintain a monopoly. Nearly every large business trends towards this or explicitly attempts it. 3. Customer satisfaction only matters if the customers have true choices, and true customer choice is antithetical to profit maximization. How would you describe an economy in which customer satisfaction actually matters? Regulated free market? Free market with guard rails? Or do you really think that a 100% unregulated market is at all supportive of human benefit? I believe a 100% free market would mean the removal of all worldwide government entities and the creation of a few mega-cartels that ran basically everything.

WalterBright 4y ago
The closer one gets to a free market, the better it works. This is unlike socialism, where the closer one gets to it, the worse it fares. > I believe a 100% free market would mean the removal of all worldwide government entities and the creation of a few mega-cartels that ran basically everything. A free market requires the existence of government to enforce our rights and provide a mechanism to resolve disputes. > How would you describe an economy in which customer satisfaction actually matters? A free market. Qualifiers are unnecessary.
grugagag 4y ago
Spot on. Just uttering the beauty of freemarket is X is quite lazy intelectually to be honest.
IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
2) Monopolies usually form because of government failure, not because of free markets. What you state is true, but its only true because because its a means to an end: It is substantially easier to manipulate government into currying you favor, than it is to build innovation that sticks. The former is just dollars. The latter is dollars + sweat + luck. 1) OK. I challenge you to find a free market that has produced a monopoly company without some kind of govt helping hand. Examples of helping hands: artificially low interest rates (derisking M&A), regulatory capture, or failure to enforce laws (antidumping, antitrust). 3) That's true. And who's fault is that not all true (cheaper) choices are offered to the market ? Hint: Why so few $1000 new cars, or $200 surgeries? Its not the market that is not willing to make them, rest assured. Its that a certain large body is not allowing others to make their risk:reward choices.
- djbusby 4y ago
  1) "black market" drugs is pretty close to free-market. But it also gets "help" from the gov; being illegal creates interesting market forces. Also, the players are trying to corner the market in their territory (create a monopoly)
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > "black market" drugs is pretty close to free-market Except for that part about shooting one's competition and rampant fraud.
BobbyJo 4y ago
1) Market != Country. There are plenty of free markets within the U.S. 2) There are multiple ways to maximize profits in a free market depending on the market. Not all markets allow you to create monopolies. Monopolies only exist, in practice, were market dynamics are compromised. For instance, power companies are able to be monopolies because power delivery infrastructure is constrained and supply cannot be increased (imagine if anyone who wanted to throw up a power poll was allowed). 3) Choice is literally the defining characteristic of a free market. If customers aren't able to choose, you aren't talking about a free market. This is kind of moot for this topic though, as colleges are very clearly something one can choose. > How would you describe an economy in which customer satisfaction actually matters? Regulated free market? Free market with guard rails? Regulations can make markets freer the same ways they make people freer. You are free to walk on sidewalks because laws say cars cants drive there. > Or do you really think that a 100% unregulated market is at all supportive of human benefit? The counter point to "free markets can help this problem" is not "you must think laws are stupid and money is everything."
- danaris 4y ago
  Gotta be careful when talking about "Free Markets". Thing is, there are generally two different things that people can mean when they say "free market": 1. A "market economy", as contrasted with a "command economy"—ie, more or less the way the US does things, as opposed to the way the Soviet Union did things. 2. An "ideal free market", as described by Adam Smith, which can, in theory, ensure that many systems find a stable, efficient equilibrium that balances consumer desires with producer desires. The problem is that, however much many (particularly of the Libertarian bent) wish to believe in it, the latter is not real. It is a thought experiment, and it requires a bunch of conditions that don't always apply (eg, perfect information, commoditization, etc). The other problem, of course, is that as I said, the two are often called "free markets" interchangeably without clarification, which leads to much confusion. You seem to be referring to #1 when you say "there are free markets within the US"; however, what WalterBright is talking about is clearly #2, since he's referring to ways that idealized free markets theoretically operate.
  - WalterBright 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

The closer one gets to a free market, the better it works. This is unlike socialism, where the closer one gets to it, the worse it fares. > I believe a 100% free market would mean the removal of all worldwide government entities and the creation of a few mega-cartels that ran basically everything. A free market requires the existence of government to enforce our rights and provide a mechanism to resolve disputes. > How would you describe an economy in which customer satisfaction actually matters? A free market. Qualifiers are unnecessary.

grugagag 4y ago

Spot on. Just uttering the beauty of freemarket is X is quite lazy intelectually to be honest.

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago

2) Monopolies usually form because of government failure, not because of free markets. What you state is true, but its only true because because its a means to an end: It is substantially easier to manipulate government into currying you favor, than it is to build innovation that sticks. The former is just dollars. The latter is dollars + sweat + luck. 1) OK. I challenge you to find a free market that has produced a monopoly company without some kind of govt helping hand. Examples of helping hands: artificially low interest rates (derisking M&A), regulatory capture, or failure to enforce laws (antidumping, antitrust). 3) That's true. And who's fault is that not all true (cheaper) choices are offered to the market ? Hint: Why so few $1000 new cars, or $200 surgeries? Its not the market that is not willing to make them, rest assured. Its that a certain large body is not allowing others to make their risk:reward choices.

djbusby 4y ago
1) "black market" drugs is pretty close to free-market. But it also gets "help" from the gov; being illegal creates interesting market forces. Also, the players are trying to corner the market in their territory (create a monopoly)
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > "black market" drugs is pretty close to free-market Except for that part about shooting one's competition and rampant fraud.

BobbyJo 4y ago

1) Market != Country. There are plenty of free markets within the U.S. 2) There are multiple ways to maximize profits in a free market depending on the market. Not all markets allow you to create monopolies. Monopolies only exist, in practice, were market dynamics are compromised. For instance, power companies are able to be monopolies because power delivery infrastructure is constrained and supply cannot be increased (imagine if anyone who wanted to throw up a power poll was allowed). 3) Choice is literally the defining characteristic of a free market. If customers aren't able to choose, you aren't talking about a free market. This is kind of moot for this topic though, as colleges are very clearly something one can choose. > How would you describe an economy in which customer satisfaction actually matters? Regulated free market? Free market with guard rails? Regulations can make markets freer the same ways they make people freer. You are free to walk on sidewalks because laws say cars cants drive there. > Or do you really think that a 100% unregulated market is at all supportive of human benefit? The counter point to "free markets can help this problem" is not "you must think laws are stupid and money is everything."

danaris 4y ago
Gotta be careful when talking about "Free Markets". Thing is, there are generally two different things that people can mean when they say "free market": 1. A "market economy", as contrasted with a "command economy"—ie, more or less the way the US does things, as opposed to the way the Soviet Union did things. 2. An "ideal free market", as described by Adam Smith, which can, in theory, ensure that many systems find a stable, efficient equilibrium that balances consumer desires with producer desires. The problem is that, however much many (particularly of the Libertarian bent) wish to believe in it, the latter is not real. It is a thought experiment, and it requires a bunch of conditions that don't always apply (eg, perfect information, commoditization, etc). The other problem, of course, is that as I said, the two are often called "free markets" interchangeably without clarification, which leads to much confusion. You seem to be referring to #1 when you say "there are free markets within the US"; however, what WalterBright is talking about is clearly #2, since he's referring to ways that idealized free markets theoretically operate.
- WalterBright 4y ago