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For most people's daily use, charging at home will fulfill their needs Right, so not fit for the massive constituency with no access to home charging then (in

For most people's daily use, charging at home will fulfill their needs Right, so not fit for the massive constituency with no access to home charging then (in addition to their many other problems as a realistic transport option for many). As much as I like the idea of electric cars, the complacency of those championing them in the light of the lack of suitability for a huge part of the population is really frustrating.

jackmott42 4y ago
Many apartments already have slow chargers installed, many more are working on it. The world rapidly built a massive network of gas stations to make gas cars work, requiring massive underground tanks full of toxic chemicals and pumps and machines to pump them into cars. For EVs we need to run some wire, its way simpler, its already happening, rapidly. It doesn't even put more net load on the grid, since it takes the same amount of electricity to refine a tank of gas, as to fill a "tank" of an EV.
rootusrootus 4y ago
Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Most EV enthusiasts that I know are all for extending overnight grid access to people who don't currently have it (which is a big number of people, to be sure, but still less than half). It's an important problem to solve, the solution is not to give up on efficient cars and stick with gasoline.
- mellosouls 4y ago
  Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Reread the quote I replied to, and what I actually said, please.
- ArtB 4y ago
  People need efficient transport not efficient cars. Efficient cars are merely less bad, rather than good. We need more public transit and less urban sprawl so that we can reuse infrastructure efficiently.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    So let's keep driving gasoline cars? Or are you suggesting that we can just wave a magic wand and change how people use transportation? What you want takes decades. In the meantime, the world is getting hotter.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Another option is to promote commuter electric motorcycles, e.g. something like the Ryvid Anthem which has a removable battery you can take inside and charge. With a range of 80 miles it's definitely a commuter motorcycle, but it's top speed of 75 MPH definitely allows you to hop on the freeway as part of your commute. The best part? It costs less than a typical used ICE car, so it's very budget friendly. And it has virtually no maintenance. I'm not against public transit but it's a significant investment and towns like mine have spent the past 40 years failing to make it happen and unlike an e-bike an electric motorcycle can fully utilize all existing roadways. I think it's time to start re-thinking transportation.
    - inawarminister 4y ago
      Main issue with electric motorcycles is that it still doesn't solve the safety issue of motorcycles, especially at freeway speeds. At least e-bikes are locked at 25kph/mph. And can be folded into public transportation.
      - taylodl 4y ago
        The safety issue with motorcycles is two-fold: * Currently the predominant category of motorcycle riders are young males who ride like idiots (i.e. they are their own biggest cause of their own accidents) * People driving 2 ton vehicles with their heads completely up their posteriors while driving. Fortunately those people are generally easy to spot and deal with. If anything, more motorcycle riding will make the roads safer because you actually have to pay attention to what you're doing while riding. You can't shave, put on your makeup, or read text messages while riding. You actually have to pay attention! Also, motorcycle-on-motorcycle crashes are extremely rare outside of the context of group rides. My biggest concern with e-bikes is people treat them like bicycles. I see people cruising around my neighborhood going 35 MPH on an e-bike without any safety gear on outside of maybe a bicycle helmet. The motorcycle safety culture of ATGATT isn't even on the radar of the e-bikers. Not to mention they don't seem to know the strategies of lane position, how to make yourself visible to others, how to swerve and brake quickly - which are all standard fare for motorcycle riders.
arsome 4y ago
I'm not sure I see your point, the only way to get to a world with L2 chargers at apartment buildings and such is to have demand for it or legislation supporting it, the best way to get that is to champion EVs.
- mellosouls 4y ago
  Championing them is fine. Championing them in a complacent way with disregard for the masses for whom they are not an option is not.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    Agreed, particularly in the states, we seem to be charging into electric cars by mandate when the infrastructure just doesnt exist for it. It doesnt have to be this way, we can mandate building the infrastructure too, or just outright pay for it - like 35% of americans live in apartments, they must be reasonably accommodated to help them with the transition. This doesnt even begin to touch on the issues rural places have with the electric revolution - again, all solvable problems that.. I think we're just assuming will solve themselves. My largest frustration is, we're charging into electric cars in such a way that will leave the poor behind, and create a larger wealth gap. I genuinely worry that the poor will be priced out of automobile access in the states, and before anyone says "well, they shouldnt need a car" - the realistic truth is.. they do and there is a massive amount of capex and opex that must be spent to make it not so. In America, we have structured our world around personal transportation, and while we can change that, it will take a concerted effort and lots of money to do so.
    - conradev 4y ago
      The earliest mandate is California's, which takes effect 12 years from now and only applies to new cars sold. The poor generally do not buy new cars. Other than the possibility of fuel price increases as time goes on (which, as a net exporter, the US has some amount of control over), how are electric vehicles making the wealth gap larger? The poor are certainly priced out, but considering EVs currently have constraints and are expensive, what benefits would they bring outside of reducing externalities to the environment?
jdeibele 4y ago
I took a trip to Fairbanks in February a few years ago. I was warned to plug in the engine block heater whenever I could. There were outlets many places. There was no charge for using the outlet but it was just the typical 110 volt US outlet. If people would aim more for that kind of infrastructure - really slow but "too cheap to meter" - it would be more widespread. No need for the expensive upgrades to the electrical system, no need for cabinets with cooling systems, no internet, no computers at all. You could put all the EV slots in one part of an apartment or shopping center parking lot, like now. It'd be nice if there was a proportional circuit breaker, so that if every EV was charging they'd get half charge instead of tripping the breaker.
- Aloha 4y ago
  There is a marked difference in the needs of a block charger and an electric car - block heaters draw between 4-10a, a car charger will draw 15+ (as much power as can be supplied).
  - bombcar 4y ago
    And while someone may abuse the engine block charger (I've seen someone plug in a mobile phone to one) the total cost is minuscule and not worth metering. Not so for actual electric cars (you can plug one into a block charger but you won't get that many miles per hour) - especially on high-speed chargers that are 220 or 440 and many amps.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    You also don't "need" a block heater for a modern (last 40yr) spark ignited gasoline engine in good repair anywhere on earth. It's just a "nice to have".
- alliao 4y ago
  a lot of street lamps had a socket in London; but then they're on 230v 10A. with 110v 10A in colder areas it's probably just enough to keep the battery pack warm...
mrguyorama 4y ago
Most people I see championing them 1) own one and use it daily 2) understand that overnight charging is a blocker to mass adoption and aggressively push for better access for renters and business owners etc to add normal outlets and 3) openly advocate for people who don't think electric cars work for them to not get them. Remember that you don't necessarily need to charge AT HOME. If you drive yourself to work and sit there for 8 hours, your employer should be encouraged and subsidized to set up 15 amp charging for some of their employees.
- thunky 4y ago
  > you don't necessarily need to charge AT HOME. If you drive yourself to work and sit there for 8 hours This make sense but I think it's a deal breaker for many. It would be for me, anyway. I don't want to depend on my employer to keep my car running. Just the idea is depressing; it'd feel like an admission that I'm "living to work". Not to mention the fact that it would limit my options for switching jobs.
antisthenes 4y ago
> Right, so not fit for the massive constituency with no access to home charging then There's another massive constituency that has access to home charging, but can't afford the EV itself. E.g. I can afford to pay the mortgage on my home, but not a $50,000 EV car, because I don't want to pad the pockets of dealerships and greedy manufacturers. I want my $200/kWh car or I'll keep using the car I already have.
- mellosouls 4y ago
  Absolutely, I was thinking of things like economic and geographic factors with my parenthesis note. But some of the commenters seem to be unaware of those constraints and how significant they are, or at least, use a tone that conveys those assumptions.
theironhammer 4y ago
Totally agree. Also what will this demand for electricity created by EVs do to the price of electricity for ordinary household devices? Already in the UK people are turning off their fridge because they can't afford to run it. This is due to Ukraine crisis affecting electricity prices, so what effect will EVs have on the price of electricity? It's all just assumed things will be wonderful. Blinkers on as usual.
officialjunk 4y ago
i know many that charge with a standard outlet at home, including myself. for many, maybe most, that's enough.
jwestbury 4y ago
I've just moved from the US to London, and one interesting approach I've seen here to EV charging is adding it to municipal infrastructure. In many London boroughs, there are now EV chargers built into the street lights. You simply scan the QR code at the device and the charge point unlocks for use. Whilst I think QR codes are maybe the wrong choice for this because of the security implications, I think the idea of integrating chargers into existing public infrastructure is quite a good one, and applicable in many places where you'd otherwise have issues with EVs. This of course doesn't solve apartment buildings, but new apartment buildings should be required to provide EV charging infrastructure, and grants to implement it in existing apartment buildings would go a long way, too.

jackmott42 4y ago

Many apartments already have slow chargers installed, many more are working on it. The world rapidly built a massive network of gas stations to make gas cars work, requiring massive underground tanks full of toxic chemicals and pumps and machines to pump them into cars. For EVs we need to run some wire, its way simpler, its already happening, rapidly. It doesn't even put more net load on the grid, since it takes the same amount of electricity to refine a tank of gas, as to fill a "tank" of an EV.

rootusrootus 4y ago

Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Most EV enthusiasts that I know are all for extending overnight grid access to people who don't currently have it (which is a big number of people, to be sure, but still less than half). It's an important problem to solve, the solution is not to give up on efficient cars and stick with gasoline.

mellosouls 4y ago
Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Reread the quote I replied to, and what I actually said, please.
ArtB 4y ago
People need efficient transport not efficient cars. Efficient cars are merely less bad, rather than good. We need more public transit and less urban sprawl so that we can reuse infrastructure efficiently.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  So let's keep driving gasoline cars? Or are you suggesting that we can just wave a magic wand and change how people use transportation? What you want takes decades. In the meantime, the world is getting hotter.
- taylodl 4y ago
  Another option is to promote commuter electric motorcycles, e.g. something like the Ryvid Anthem which has a removable battery you can take inside and charge. With a range of 80 miles it's definitely a commuter motorcycle, but it's top speed of 75 MPH definitely allows you to hop on the freeway as part of your commute. The best part? It costs less than a typical used ICE car, so it's very budget friendly. And it has virtually no maintenance. I'm not against public transit but it's a significant investment and towns like mine have spent the past 40 years failing to make it happen and unlike an e-bike an electric motorcycle can fully utilize all existing roadways. I think it's time to start re-thinking transportation.
  - inawarminister 4y ago
    Main issue with electric motorcycles is that it still doesn't solve the safety issue of motorcycles, especially at freeway speeds. At least e-bikes are locked at 25kph/mph. And can be folded into public transportation.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      The safety issue with motorcycles is two-fold: * Currently the predominant category of motorcycle riders are young males who ride like idiots (i.e. they are their own biggest cause of their own accidents) * People driving 2 ton vehicles with their heads completely up their posteriors while driving. Fortunately those people are generally easy to spot and deal with. If anything, more motorcycle riding will make the roads safer because you actually have to pay attention to what you're doing while riding. You can't shave, put on your makeup, or read text messages while riding. You actually have to pay attention! Also, motorcycle-on-motorcycle crashes are extremely rare outside of the context of group rides. My biggest concern with e-bikes is people treat them like bicycles. I see people cruising around my neighborhood going 35 MPH on an e-bike without any safety gear on outside of maybe a bicycle helmet. The motorcycle safety culture of ATGATT isn't even on the radar of the e-bikers. Not to mention they don't seem to know the strategies of lane position, how to make yourself visible to others, how to swerve and brake quickly - which are all standard fare for motorcycle riders.

arsome 4y ago

I'm not sure I see your point, the only way to get to a world with L2 chargers at apartment buildings and such is to have demand for it or legislation supporting it, the best way to get that is to champion EVs.

mellosouls 4y ago
Championing them is fine. Championing them in a complacent way with disregard for the masses for whom they are not an option is not.
- Aloha 4y ago
  Agreed, particularly in the states, we seem to be charging into electric cars by mandate when the infrastructure just doesnt exist for it. It doesnt have to be this way, we can mandate building the infrastructure too, or just outright pay for it - like 35% of americans live in apartments, they must be reasonably accommodated to help them with the transition. This doesnt even begin to touch on the issues rural places have with the electric revolution - again, all solvable problems that.. I think we're just assuming will solve themselves. My largest frustration is, we're charging into electric cars in such a way that will leave the poor behind, and create a larger wealth gap. I genuinely worry that the poor will be priced out of automobile access in the states, and before anyone says "well, they shouldnt need a car" - the realistic truth is.. they do and there is a massive amount of capex and opex that must be spent to make it not so. In America, we have structured our world around personal transportation, and while we can change that, it will take a concerted effort and lots of money to do so.
  - conradev 4y ago
    The earliest mandate is California's, which takes effect 12 years from now and only applies to new cars sold. The poor generally do not buy new cars. Other than the possibility of fuel price increases as time goes on (which, as a net exporter, the US has some amount of control over), how are electric vehicles making the wealth gap larger? The poor are certainly priced out, but considering EVs currently have constraints and are expensive, what benefits would they bring outside of reducing externalities to the environment?

jdeibele 4y ago

I took a trip to Fairbanks in February a few years ago. I was warned to plug in the engine block heater whenever I could. There were outlets many places. There was no charge for using the outlet but it was just the typical 110 volt US outlet. If people would aim more for that kind of infrastructure - really slow but "too cheap to meter" - it would be more widespread. No need for the expensive upgrades to the electrical system, no need for cabinets with cooling systems, no internet, no computers at all. You could put all the EV slots in one part of an apartment or shopping center parking lot, like now. It'd be nice if there was a proportional circuit breaker, so that if every EV was charging they'd get half charge instead of tripping the breaker.

Aloha 4y ago
There is a marked difference in the needs of a block charger and an electric car - block heaters draw between 4-10a, a car charger will draw 15+ (as much power as can be supplied).
- bombcar 4y ago
  And while someone may abuse the engine block charger (I've seen someone plug in a mobile phone to one) the total cost is minuscule and not worth metering. Not so for actual electric cars (you can plug one into a block charger but you won't get that many miles per hour) - especially on high-speed chargers that are 220 or 440 and many amps.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  You also don't "need" a block heater for a modern (last 40yr) spark ignited gasoline engine in good repair anywhere on earth. It's just a "nice to have".
alliao 4y ago
a lot of street lamps had a socket in London; but then they're on 230v 10A. with 110v 10A in colder areas it's probably just enough to keep the battery pack warm...

mrguyorama 4y ago

Most people I see championing them 1) own one and use it daily 2) understand that overnight charging is a blocker to mass adoption and aggressively push for better access for renters and business owners etc to add normal outlets and 3) openly advocate for people who don't think electric cars work for them to not get them. Remember that you don't necessarily need to charge AT HOME. If you drive yourself to work and sit there for 8 hours, your employer should be encouraged and subsidized to set up 15 amp charging for some of their employees.

thunky 4y ago
> you don't necessarily need to charge AT HOME. If you drive yourself to work and sit there for 8 hours This make sense but I think it's a deal breaker for many. It would be for me, anyway. I don't want to depend on my employer to keep my car running. Just the idea is depressing; it'd feel like an admission that I'm "living to work". Not to mention the fact that it would limit my options for switching jobs.

antisthenes 4y ago

> Right, so not fit for the massive constituency with no access to home charging then There's another massive constituency that has access to home charging, but can't afford the EV itself. E.g. I can afford to pay the mortgage on my home, but not a $50,000 EV car, because I don't want to pad the pockets of dealerships and greedy manufacturers. I want my $200/kWh car or I'll keep using the car I already have.

mellosouls 4y ago
Absolutely, I was thinking of things like economic and geographic factors with my parenthesis note. But some of the commenters seem to be unaware of those constraints and how significant they are, or at least, use a tone that conveys those assumptions.

theironhammer 4y ago

Totally agree. Also what will this demand for electricity created by EVs do to the price of electricity for ordinary household devices? Already in the UK people are turning off their fridge because they can't afford to run it. This is due to Ukraine crisis affecting electricity prices, so what effect will EVs have on the price of electricity? It's all just assumed things will be wonderful. Blinkers on as usual.

officialjunk 4y ago

i know many that charge with a standard outlet at home, including myself. for many, maybe most, that's enough.

jwestbury 4y ago

I've just moved from the US to London, and one interesting approach I've seen here to EV charging is adding it to municipal infrastructure. In many London boroughs, there are now EV chargers built into the street lights. You simply scan the QR code at the device and the charge point unlocks for use. Whilst I think QR codes are maybe the wrong choice for this because of the security implications, I think the idea of integrating chargers into existing public infrastructure is quite a good one, and applicable in many places where you'd otherwise have issues with EVs. This of course doesn't solve apartment buildings, but new apartment buildings should be required to provide EV charging infrastructure, and grants to implement it in existing apartment buildings would go a long way, too.