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Ultimately he won't, because counting stats aren't as important as being the best in the moment, especially when rules have changed that have turned NBA competi

Ultimately he won't, because counting stats aren't as important as being the best in the moment, especially when rules have changed that have turned NBA competitions into glorified 1990s era all star games. Players can literally take an extra step with the ball in their hands that they couldn't 20 years ago. Bigs can no longer crowd the paint. For guy who is as bad a shooter as Lebron, those are crazy benefits.

insane_dreamer 4y ago
LeBron isn't the GOAT because of the scoring title (just like Kareem wasn't the GOAT before him). He's the GOAT because for most of his 20 seasons (and counting), and the 1400+ games he's played so far, he was the best in the moment, as you put it. This compares with Jordan's 15 seasons -- 2 of which were with the Wizards where Jordan was nowhere near his prime anymore -- and 1100 games. The Lakers may be a mess, but LeBron is still a top 5 player in the league in his 20th season, and pretty close to his peak performance.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  He's not the GOAT at all. Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.
  - adamsmith143 4y ago
    >Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. Typical Lebron hater. Steph isn't even in the same conversation as Lebron, he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. You can be a Golden State stan all you want but this is just silly. >He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up. All time points leader, 4th all time in assists, 4 rings, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 League MVPs, a scoring title, an assist title, and HES STILL NOT DONE. Idk if you ever actually watched NBA games since Lebron went Pro or what but he was clearly the most dominant player in the league for over a decade. 8 finals in a row. You sir are on drugs.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      > he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era Everybody that knows anything about Basketball stats would disagree. Plus, Curry has won 2 titles without KD, and in neither of those runs did he have a Top player with him, like Lebron had with AD and Wade.
    - thefaux 4y ago
      > even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. Hard disagree. Have you played pickup basketball before and after Steph? I'm not even saying this is a good thing, but Steph Curry has quite clearly changed the way basketball is played and he made people want to go out and play the game. KD is of course an exceptional player, but how many people model their game after him or try to play like him? Steph Curry is also pretty clearly the most skilled player in basketball history. The only other player who even comes close is Kyrie Irving. Personally, I appreciate this as much as LeBron and KD's ability to exploit their significant physical advantages (though both are also obviously great basketball minds too). Also, I don't say this as a conspiracist, but how the game is officiated matters too. Would the Cavs have won in 2016 if they weren't given tremendous liberty to manhandle Curry off the ball? Having said all that, I think it's pretty easy to make a case for LeBron. He and Steph are the two most significant players of their generation. It's hard to argue against LeBron's overall body of work but there is a transcendent magic to Steph's game that sways me. Call it 1a and 1b. But I respect the case for LeBron.
      - adamsmith143 4y ago
        I mean you can make the case for Steph changing the game but he's not in the conversation for GOAT at all. I'm not sure you can put him in the greatest PG convo either. Best shooter of all time bar none? Yeah obviously, but idk beyond that.
        panick21_ 4y ago
        He has 4 titles. 2 he achieved with no other Superstar on his team. That's the same amount of titles Lebron has. And on avg, its hard to argue that Lebron has not had the better team. Lebron moved from one team to another always engineering situations to get the best possible team mates. Lebron has played with more high level team mates then basically anybody in NBA history (outside of maybe Kyrie).
  - stevesearer 4y ago
    GOAT discussions tend to be fruitless anyway as every participant weighs the metrics differently. For instance, some might count losing in the playoffs more times than another player against a GOAT candidate. However, others might use those same playoff losses as a positive for the GOAT candidate since the overall team was bad and they wouldn't have made the playoffs without them.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    and here we go begun, the GOAT wars have
- likeabbas 4y ago
  He can't be the GOAT simply because he's lost 3 finals to Steph Curry. Curry is definitely not the GOAT, but Curry was objectively better in the 3 series that would have solidified LeBron's legacy.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    Basketball is not a one-on-one game. Steph Curry is arguably the best shooter ever (also better than MJ in that regard), but no one considers him the best all-round player. Lebron didn't lose to Curry, the Cavs lost to a superior Warriors team; there's a difference. The Bulls with MJ were the best team in the NBA and even when they were without MJ they still had the third best record in the NBA ('93-'94). James has been the best player in the NBA most of his career but not always on the best team; no way were the Cavs a top seed team without him.
    - Tarsul 4y ago
      it's a team game and steph is a greater leader than LeBron. Also, LeBron won't be the GOAT just because 4 titles are less significant than 6 and Jordan was an international phenomenom in the 90s the world has not seen since in Basketball. Everyone knew Jordan in Europe. Try that with LeBron.
  - chollida1 4y ago
    Well Jordan lost in the first round 3 times. Can he be considered the goat if lost in the first round 3 times? Twice to Larry Bird, Surely Jordan can't be the goat if he lost to Bird 2x in the very first round and not the finals? Surely you must see how flawed your logic is here?
    - likeabbas 4y ago
      The difference is the first round aren't the finals. Once you get to the finals, you need to be able to rally your team to win. LeBron couldn't do that 3x against Curry. MJ did it all 6x.
mcgannon2007 4y ago
On the other hand, there were 10-15 more possessions per game in Kareem's career relative to LeBron's and, on average, approximately equivalent points per game. So a lot of this is a wash.
LanceH 4y ago
He won't, because Nike spent billions of dollars convincing everyone MJ was the greatest. I'm also tired of the "wants it more" and "works the hardest" conversations. Somewhere out there is a dude who is working just as hard, but he's 5'6", has little fast twitch, and small hands. No matter how much he wants it, he'll never be an NBA all star.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  Nike hasn't invested billions on Lebron?
  - LanceH 4y ago
    They didn't run his campaigns as him being the best ever, did they? MJ was still top dog at Nike, right? That also runs into my other theory of whoever was #1 when the mid 80's to early 90's rolled around stays at #1 due to branding becoming "modern". Skateboarding? Tony Hawk; Football video game: Madden. After that period of time, the brands stopped moving over for new things coming up.

insane_dreamer 4y ago

LeBron isn't the GOAT because of the scoring title (just like Kareem wasn't the GOAT before him). He's the GOAT because for most of his 20 seasons (and counting), and the 1400+ games he's played so far, he was the best in the moment, as you put it. This compares with Jordan's 15 seasons -- 2 of which were with the Wizards where Jordan was nowhere near his prime anymore -- and 1100 games. The Lakers may be a mess, but LeBron is still a top 5 player in the league in his 20th season, and pretty close to his peak performance.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
He's not the GOAT at all. Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.
- adamsmith143 4y ago
  >Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. Typical Lebron hater. Steph isn't even in the same conversation as Lebron, he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. You can be a Golden State stan all you want but this is just silly. >He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up. All time points leader, 4th all time in assists, 4 rings, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 League MVPs, a scoring title, an assist title, and HES STILL NOT DONE. Idk if you ever actually watched NBA games since Lebron went Pro or what but he was clearly the most dominant player in the league for over a decade. 8 finals in a row. You sir are on drugs.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    > he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era Everybody that knows anything about Basketball stats would disagree. Plus, Curry has won 2 titles without KD, and in neither of those runs did he have a Top player with him, like Lebron had with AD and Wade.
  - thefaux 4y ago
    > even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. Hard disagree. Have you played pickup basketball before and after Steph? I'm not even saying this is a good thing, but Steph Curry has quite clearly changed the way basketball is played and he made people want to go out and play the game. KD is of course an exceptional player, but how many people model their game after him or try to play like him? Steph Curry is also pretty clearly the most skilled player in basketball history. The only other player who even comes close is Kyrie Irving. Personally, I appreciate this as much as LeBron and KD's ability to exploit their significant physical advantages (though both are also obviously great basketball minds too). Also, I don't say this as a conspiracist, but how the game is officiated matters too. Would the Cavs have won in 2016 if they weren't given tremendous liberty to manhandle Curry off the ball? Having said all that, I think it's pretty easy to make a case for LeBron. He and Steph are the two most significant players of their generation. It's hard to argue against LeBron's overall body of work but there is a transcendent magic to Steph's game that sways me. Call it 1a and 1b. But I respect the case for LeBron.
    - adamsmith143 4y ago
      I mean you can make the case for Steph changing the game but he's not in the conversation for GOAT at all. I'm not sure you can put him in the greatest PG convo either. Best shooter of all time bar none? Yeah obviously, but idk beyond that.
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        He has 4 titles. 2 he achieved with no other Superstar on his team. That's the same amount of titles Lebron has. And on avg, its hard to argue that Lebron has not had the better team. Lebron moved from one team to another always engineering situations to get the best possible team mates. Lebron has played with more high level team mates then basically anybody in NBA history (outside of maybe Kyrie).
- stevesearer 4y ago
  GOAT discussions tend to be fruitless anyway as every participant weighs the metrics differently. For instance, some might count losing in the playoffs more times than another player against a GOAT candidate. However, others might use those same playoff losses as a positive for the GOAT candidate since the overall team was bad and they wouldn't have made the playoffs without them.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  and here we go begun, the GOAT wars have
likeabbas 4y ago
He can't be the GOAT simply because he's lost 3 finals to Steph Curry. Curry is definitely not the GOAT, but Curry was objectively better in the 3 series that would have solidified LeBron's legacy.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  Basketball is not a one-on-one game. Steph Curry is arguably the best shooter ever (also better than MJ in that regard), but no one considers him the best all-round player. Lebron didn't lose to Curry, the Cavs lost to a superior Warriors team; there's a difference. The Bulls with MJ were the best team in the NBA and even when they were without MJ they still had the third best record in the NBA ('93-'94). James has been the best player in the NBA most of his career but not always on the best team; no way were the Cavs a top seed team without him.
  - Tarsul 4y ago
    it's a team game and steph is a greater leader than LeBron. Also, LeBron won't be the GOAT just because 4 titles are less significant than 6 and Jordan was an international phenomenom in the 90s the world has not seen since in Basketball. Everyone knew Jordan in Europe. Try that with LeBron.
- chollida1 4y ago
  Well Jordan lost in the first round 3 times. Can he be considered the goat if lost in the first round 3 times? Twice to Larry Bird, Surely Jordan can't be the goat if he lost to Bird 2x in the very first round and not the finals? Surely you must see how flawed your logic is here?
  - likeabbas 4y ago
    The difference is the first round aren't the finals. Once you get to the finals, you need to be able to rally your team to win. LeBron couldn't do that 3x against Curry. MJ did it all 6x.

mcgannon2007 4y ago

On the other hand, there were 10-15 more possessions per game in Kareem's career relative to LeBron's and, on average, approximately equivalent points per game. So a lot of this is a wash.

LanceH 4y ago

He won't, because Nike spent billions of dollars convincing everyone MJ was the greatest. I'm also tired of the "wants it more" and "works the hardest" conversations. Somewhere out there is a dude who is working just as hard, but he's 5'6", has little fast twitch, and small hands. No matter how much he wants it, he'll never be an NBA all star.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
Nike hasn't invested billions on Lebron?
- LanceH 4y ago
  They didn't run his campaigns as him being the best ever, did they? MJ was still top dog at Nike, right? That also runs into my other theory of whoever was #1 when the mid 80's to early 90's rolled around stays at #1 due to branding becoming "modern". Skateboarding? Tony Hawk; Football video game: Madden. After that period of time, the brands stopped moving over for new things coming up.