6 ms·

>Wiring A word of warning, it must be said that you shouldn't have a "normal" data cable in the same conduit as mains. With CAT 6 cable you won't have transmi

by jaclaz 4y ago

>Wiring A word of warning, it must be said that you shouldn't have a "normal" data cable in the same conduit as mains. With CAT 6 cable you won't have transmission/interference problems, but still it is not allowed by code, unless the network cable is of the type insulated up to 400V, marked with "CEI-UNEL 36762 C-4 (U0=400V)", see (italian): https://fibra.click/cavi/#coesistenza-con-cavi-in-tensione https://fibra.click/cavi/#coesistenza-con-cavi-in-tensione https://www.cavel.it/it/supporto-tecnico/certificazioni/coesistenza-tra-cavi-per-telecomunicazioni-e-cavi-energia https://www.cavel.it/it/supporto-tecnico/certificazioni/coes...

giuliomagnifico 4y ago
Yes, I know and you're right but it's only a short path (about 2 meters), and it's the only way I found to get through the cable from a room to another. Anyway I haven't terminated the cable with the wall jack, the cable is going out of the wall "intact", this should be a bit safer.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Sounds like a good excuse to run a bit of fiber
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Sure, and as said you won't likely have any issue, and maybe - without knowing - you actually used a U0=400V cable, the norm is 2010 or so if I recall correctly, so I believe that most Cat 6 cables in commerce are nowadays certified for that use.
  - giuliomagnifico 4y ago
    Just checked, and I see only EIA/TIA 568B.2 ISO/IEC 11801 EN501
- kjs3 4y ago
  You might want to check if that out of code solution could invalidate your homeowners insurance policy. It sure can in the US.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Especially now that it's publicly available on the internet. And yes, the fire investigators for home insurance DO check things like that.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    I've seen this claim a lot, but what is the actual legal basis for it? Contractual language in specific policies? Assorted state laws? Homeowners insurance generally covers negligence by the owner (otherwise you'd be out of luck for many types of events). A homeowner modifying wiring in a way that causes a problem would seem to fall squarely into this category.
    - kjs3 4y ago
      Legal basis? Ask a lawyer, but I suspect it's buried in contract law. Homeowners insurance generally covers negligence by the owner Does it? I just know several people who have done their own 'renovations' that have had insurance claims turned down (even after arbitration) because they didn't have a licenses contractor do the work. People who insisted they knew better than anyone else. Typical. So rewire at your own risk, I guess.
wkat4242 4y ago
If Italy is anything like Spain nobody gives a crap about building code stuff. When I moved into my apartment it had just been "certified" by an electrician which took a week. There were outlets without covers on them. Exposed live stripped wires hanging in the hallway. Ground wire to the breaker box but not actually connected to the rest of the house. Exposed terminal blocks hanging everywhere. I doubt this "professional" even bothered to visit the place and just cashed a royal fee to sign the paperwork. It's a total joke. If this crap gets "certified" then a DC cable beside an AC one In a conduit is really no issue :)
- eldaisfish 4y ago
  Please don't call certification a joke and diminish its value. If you see clearly illegal things, report them. The person doing the certification can have their license revoked. Things aren't always ideal but please don't turn this into a laughing matter.
  - fuzzybear3965 4y ago
    Maybe he did report them and maybe their license wasn't revoked. He's only repeating a joke that the electrician and the certification committee told him. I wouldn't blame the victim, here.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    I know HN frowns upon this but location really matters, and op's response is valid and non-laughing in many places. "Certification matters" cannot be resolved as a statement without location / situation. If I reported such a situation in Canada, it may or may not have satisfactory official resolution before heat death of the universe. One can hope. If I reported such a situation where I was born, at best nothing would happen ; more likely I would get laughed at. (At worst, electrician and their 3 buddies would teach me a valuable lesson about how things work around these here parts).
tucosan 4y ago
Can you please elaborate? Sadly your linked document is in Italian, which poses a language barrier for most of the community here.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Two problems - mains lines could come in contact with the data lines which would then transmit power to things connected to them (or burn up). Fiber won't do this because it doesn't transmit. And the second is that mains lines are AC and could introduce noise into the wired lines - again, fiber isn't susceptible to this.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Until that norm (as said I believe around 2010 or so) you could NOT mix low voltage (and signal) cables with mains (220V-240V AC usually) within a same conduit. The new norm allows this mixing as long as the low voltage cables are certified as having insulation for 400 V. Still you cannot strip the cable (i.e. you cannot put a terminator/receptacle) in the same box as mains. The code is mainly about electrical safety, it doesn't consider the possibility of interference, that is "your" problem (but shielded cables give no problems in practice).
- cptskippy 4y ago
  The National Electric Code in the US has similar provisions: > 300.3 > (C) Conductors of Different Systems. > (1) 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of ac and dc > circuits, rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, shall be permitted > to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or > raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating > equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any > conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway. Basically idea is to prevent a low/less voltage cable from potentially being energized by a higher voltage cable. It would suck to strip the ends off your CAT6 and discover it's been energized to 240v.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    But keep in mind many times electrical conduit is not used as a bona fide conduit, but rather more of a physical convenience (note how the bit you quoted is talking about conductors not cables. So if you bury a length of PVC pipe (grey or white) with a cat6 network cable plus a UF power cable (required for the wet location, regardless of the pipe), you're fine. Although residential in the US rarely (never?) goes above 170 volts (peak), which is more forgiving than the ~325V of most of the world.
sschueller 4y ago
You can with fiber and it is allowed. I used these special plates[1] in my setup[2] that are meant to be run in the same conduit as power. Switzerland is quite strict with electrical codes so I was surprised when I found out I could do this. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARSpp4B9-X4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARSpp4B9-X4 [2] https://sschueller.github.io/posts/wiring-a-home-with-fiber/ https://sschueller.github.io/posts/wiring-a-home-with-fiber/
- sn0wf1re 4y ago
  Glass and plastic don't conduct electricity.
  - NeveHanter 4y ago
    For glass, that's true in normal temperatures/voltages, but when it gets hot/melts it starts being a conductor instead. Same if the voltage is high enough, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_strength#Break_down_field_strength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_strength#Break_down... for a table and description about that effect.
andix 4y ago
Yeah, you shouldn’t. But most of the time it works anyway. But you’re right, I haven’t seen any professional installation, that doesn’t use CAT 7 for a long time.

by jaclaz 4y ago

giuliomagnifico 4y ago

Yes, I know and you're right but it's only a short path (about 2 meters), and it's the only way I found to get through the cable from a room to another. Anyway I haven't terminated the cable with the wall jack, the cable is going out of the wall "intact", this should be a bit safer.

NegativeLatency 4y ago
Sounds like a good excuse to run a bit of fiber
jaclaz 4y ago
Sure, and as said you won't likely have any issue, and maybe - without knowing - you actually used a U0=400V cable, the norm is 2010 or so if I recall correctly, so I believe that most Cat 6 cables in commerce are nowadays certified for that use.
- giuliomagnifico 4y ago
  Just checked, and I see only EIA/TIA 568B.2 ISO/IEC 11801 EN501
kjs3 4y ago
You might want to check if that out of code solution could invalidate your homeowners insurance policy. It sure can in the US.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Especially now that it's publicly available on the internet. And yes, the fire investigators for home insurance DO check things like that.
- mindslight 4y ago
  I've seen this claim a lot, but what is the actual legal basis for it? Contractual language in specific policies? Assorted state laws? Homeowners insurance generally covers negligence by the owner (otherwise you'd be out of luck for many types of events). A homeowner modifying wiring in a way that causes a problem would seem to fall squarely into this category.
  - kjs3 4y ago
    Legal basis? Ask a lawyer, but I suspect it's buried in contract law. Homeowners insurance generally covers negligence by the owner Does it? I just know several people who have done their own 'renovations' that have had insurance claims turned down (even after arbitration) because they didn't have a licenses contractor do the work. People who insisted they knew better than anyone else. Typical. So rewire at your own risk, I guess.

wkat4242 4y ago

If Italy is anything like Spain nobody gives a crap about building code stuff. When I moved into my apartment it had just been "certified" by an electrician which took a week. There were outlets without covers on them. Exposed live stripped wires hanging in the hallway. Ground wire to the breaker box but not actually connected to the rest of the house. Exposed terminal blocks hanging everywhere. I doubt this "professional" even bothered to visit the place and just cashed a royal fee to sign the paperwork. It's a total joke. If this crap gets "certified" then a DC cable beside an AC one In a conduit is really no issue :)

eldaisfish 4y ago
Please don't call certification a joke and diminish its value. If you see clearly illegal things, report them. The person doing the certification can have their license revoked. Things aren't always ideal but please don't turn this into a laughing matter.
- fuzzybear3965 4y ago
  Maybe he did report them and maybe their license wasn't revoked. He's only repeating a joke that the electrician and the certification committee told him. I wouldn't blame the victim, here.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I know HN frowns upon this but location really matters, and op's response is valid and non-laughing in many places. "Certification matters" cannot be resolved as a statement without location / situation. If I reported such a situation in Canada, it may or may not have satisfactory official resolution before heat death of the universe. One can hope. If I reported such a situation where I was born, at best nothing would happen ; more likely I would get laughed at. (At worst, electrician and their 3 buddies would teach me a valuable lesson about how things work around these here parts).

tucosan 4y ago

Can you please elaborate? Sadly your linked document is in Italian, which poses a language barrier for most of the community here.

bombcar 4y ago
Two problems - mains lines could come in contact with the data lines which would then transmit power to things connected to them (or burn up). Fiber won't do this because it doesn't transmit. And the second is that mains lines are AC and could introduce noise into the wired lines - again, fiber isn't susceptible to this.
jaclaz 4y ago
Until that norm (as said I believe around 2010 or so) you could NOT mix low voltage (and signal) cables with mains (220V-240V AC usually) within a same conduit. The new norm allows this mixing as long as the low voltage cables are certified as having insulation for 400 V. Still you cannot strip the cable (i.e. you cannot put a terminator/receptacle) in the same box as mains. The code is mainly about electrical safety, it doesn't consider the possibility of interference, that is "your" problem (but shielded cables give no problems in practice).
cptskippy 4y ago
The National Electric Code in the US has similar provisions: > 300.3 > (C) Conductors of Different Systems. > (1) 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of ac and dc > circuits, rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, shall be permitted > to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or > raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating > equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any > conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway. Basically idea is to prevent a low/less voltage cable from potentially being energized by a higher voltage cable. It would suck to strip the ends off your CAT6 and discover it's been energized to 240v.
- mindslight 4y ago
  But keep in mind many times electrical conduit is not used as a bona fide conduit, but rather more of a physical convenience (note how the bit you quoted is talking about conductors not cables. So if you bury a length of PVC pipe (grey or white) with a cat6 network cable plus a UF power cable (required for the wet location, regardless of the pipe), you're fine. Although residential in the US rarely (never?) goes above 170 volts (peak), which is more forgiving than the ~325V of most of the world.

sschueller 4y ago

You can with fiber and it is allowed. I used these special plates[1] in my setup[2] that are meant to be run in the same conduit as power. Switzerland is quite strict with electrical codes so I was surprised when I found out I could do this. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARSpp4B9-X4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARSpp4B9-X4 [2] https://sschueller.github.io/posts/wiring-a-home-with-fiber/ https://sschueller.github.io/posts/wiring-a-home-with-fiber/

sn0wf1re 4y ago
Glass and plastic don't conduct electricity.
- NeveHanter 4y ago
  For glass, that's true in normal temperatures/voltages, but when it gets hot/melts it starts being a conductor instead. Same if the voltage is high enough, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_strength#Break_down_field_strength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_strength#Break_down... for a table and description about that effect.

andix 4y ago

Yeah, you shouldn’t. But most of the time it works anyway. But you’re right, I haven’t seen any professional installation, that doesn’t use CAT 7 for a long time.