4 ms·

Volumes could be said about what we deliberately didn't try and what we deliberately didn't study. We shouldn't pretend that the venture into the unknown wasn't

Volumes could be said about what we deliberately didn't try and what we deliberately didn't study. We shouldn't pretend that the venture into the unknown wasn't steered by the deep pockets of Big Pharma.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
Why don’t you give us a 3 paragraph except of those “volumes,” then?
- mshake2 4y ago
  If you're really asking in good faith, write me 3 paragraphs on whether or not you agree with my statement.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Great answer. Your point is now clear.
    - Chris2048 4y ago
      out of interest, what do you believe the point was?
      - actually_a_dog 4y ago
        They were trolling.
        mshake2 4y ago
        Proof of trolling is asking of you that which you asked of me? That's surprisingly revealing.
        actually_a_dog 4y ago
        I asked you a good faith question that should have been easy for you to answer if what you said was true. You refused. What am I supposed to believe? In simple terms, I asked you to put up or shut up, and your response was "no u." If you had an actual point, you should have been more than happy to have been asked to expound upon it.
        mshake2 4y ago
        In a snarky way, making it fairly clear what you thought, you asked me to spend time writing multiple paragraphs. That's not what I call "good faith." And the fact that you "ha gotcha" as soon as I asked for your time investment first, before I invested mine, just reinforces that. Further, you haven't responded to the person who did write the requested paragraphs, so what a waste of time that turned out to be.
  - ted_dunning 4y ago
    OK. Assuming you are acting in good faith as well. The two previous zoonotic coronavirus outbreaks, SARS and MERS, had case fatality rates of nearly 10% and over 30% respectively. Before we had reliable clinical data to the contrary, it was reasonable to respond to the very real possibility that COVID had, or very quickly would develop similar lethality. This risk led to a collaborative effort to sequence the COVID-19 virus and to develop vaccines as quickly as possible. In conjunction with this, there are very large studies evaluating existing drugs using in silico and in vitro efforts to try to find functional bindings. Subsequent to plausible candidates being identified, case studies and then RCTs were conducted on an expedited basis to further qualify candidates. The result was multiple vaccines that had very high efficacy (the mRNA and a few adenovirus based ones) and several vaccines that exhibited much lower efficacy. In parallel with this constructive work, there were quite a few charlatans who misconstrued limited clinical evidence or who simply started rumors based on nothing. From this we got people touting inaction, bleach inhalation, hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and other bogus treatments with no effect on the disease and variable levels of lethality of the treatment. Your turn now. You said that promising avenues were willfully ignored. Provide some examples.
    - mshake2 4y ago
      Ok. You're not OP but I appreciate the gesture. EUA can only be used when no alternative treatment exists. As such, there was a huge coordinated effort to both discredit potential treatments ("horsey paste ahaha!!") or to just not study them. Any alternative would have meant no EUA, meaning no big vaccine contracts. We choose a path that favored the manufacturers, at the expense of alternative treatments. Treatment avenues were ignored. 0% liability for vaccine manufacturers, yet the public message that it's 100% safe. How is it possible for those two to exist and not cause cognitive dissonance? If it's 100% safe, then the manufacturers don't need any protection, and if they have 0% liability, then they have deemed that there exists a financial risk that they are not comfortable with. Otherwise it would have been "this is 100% safe and we back it by the life of our organization." Avenues to reinforce the public trust were ignored. Why did the CDC stop tracking breakthrough infections in 2021? Shouldn't this be considered very important information to understand how our tools and the virus are performing? We're choosing to discard data instead of vacuuming it all up. Why? Relevant data was ignored.
- tomjen3 4y ago
  Not op, but: We didn't try to take the debate, or even much acknowledge tradeofs. These were written of as "allow grandma to die", but if we accept that the period of 18-24 is crucial for adults to find themselves, then we essentially cut 1/3 of that time, which may have several decades of life impact, to add (maybe) a few more years to grandmas life. I am not saying it wasn't the right choice. I am saying that anybody who disagreed were not offered a chair at the decision table (or zoom room), but were actively bullied and called science deniers. Needless to say that doesn't make them want to hear our arguments either. Then there is the entire: no mask, masks maybe, masks are essential but you don't have to wear one that isn't made from simple cloth. Finally it seemed to me that the WHO was more concerned with making sure China didn't get insulted than to deal with the dicease. Anywhere else it would have been called China flu, and there wouldn't have been a debate over it. Suddenly we had to talk about how this was not Chinas fault and we even had these stupid "hug a Chinese person" campaigns in the beginning.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    I don't know why people say "we stole this time from kids" as if a pandemic let to roam free wouldn't be disruptive. How many kids are without one of their parents now because of covid? It's a global emergency, there is no option that allows people to pretend nothing is happening.
    - tomjen3 4y ago
      Please read my comment again - I put the lower age range at 18. That is not kids.

actually_a_dog 4y ago

Why don’t you give us a 3 paragraph except of those “volumes,” then?

mshake2 4y ago
If you're really asking in good faith, write me 3 paragraphs on whether or not you agree with my statement.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Great answer. Your point is now clear.
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    out of interest, what do you believe the point was?
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      They were trolling.
      - mshake2 4y ago
        Proof of trolling is asking of you that which you asked of me? That's surprisingly revealing.
        actually_a_dog 4y ago
        I asked you a good faith question that should have been easy for you to answer if what you said was true. You refused. What am I supposed to believe? In simple terms, I asked you to put up or shut up, and your response was "no u." If you had an actual point, you should have been more than happy to have been asked to expound upon it.
        mshake2 4y ago
        In a snarky way, making it fairly clear what you thought, you asked me to spend time writing multiple paragraphs. That's not what I call "good faith." And the fact that you "ha gotcha" as soon as I asked for your time investment first, before I invested mine, just reinforces that. Further, you haven't responded to the person who did write the requested paragraphs, so what a waste of time that turned out to be.
- ted_dunning 4y ago
  OK. Assuming you are acting in good faith as well. The two previous zoonotic coronavirus outbreaks, SARS and MERS, had case fatality rates of nearly 10% and over 30% respectively. Before we had reliable clinical data to the contrary, it was reasonable to respond to the very real possibility that COVID had, or very quickly would develop similar lethality. This risk led to a collaborative effort to sequence the COVID-19 virus and to develop vaccines as quickly as possible. In conjunction with this, there are very large studies evaluating existing drugs using in silico and in vitro efforts to try to find functional bindings. Subsequent to plausible candidates being identified, case studies and then RCTs were conducted on an expedited basis to further qualify candidates. The result was multiple vaccines that had very high efficacy (the mRNA and a few adenovirus based ones) and several vaccines that exhibited much lower efficacy. In parallel with this constructive work, there were quite a few charlatans who misconstrued limited clinical evidence or who simply started rumors based on nothing. From this we got people touting inaction, bleach inhalation, hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and other bogus treatments with no effect on the disease and variable levels of lethality of the treatment. Your turn now. You said that promising avenues were willfully ignored. Provide some examples.
  - mshake2 4y ago
    Ok. You're not OP but I appreciate the gesture. EUA can only be used when no alternative treatment exists. As such, there was a huge coordinated effort to both discredit potential treatments ("horsey paste ahaha!!") or to just not study them. Any alternative would have meant no EUA, meaning no big vaccine contracts. We choose a path that favored the manufacturers, at the expense of alternative treatments. Treatment avenues were ignored. 0% liability for vaccine manufacturers, yet the public message that it's 100% safe. How is it possible for those two to exist and not cause cognitive dissonance? If it's 100% safe, then the manufacturers don't need any protection, and if they have 0% liability, then they have deemed that there exists a financial risk that they are not comfortable with. Otherwise it would have been "this is 100% safe and we back it by the life of our organization." Avenues to reinforce the public trust were ignored. Why did the CDC stop tracking breakthrough infections in 2021? Shouldn't this be considered very important information to understand how our tools and the virus are performing? We're choosing to discard data instead of vacuuming it all up. Why? Relevant data was ignored.
tomjen3 4y ago
Not op, but: We didn't try to take the debate, or even much acknowledge tradeofs. These were written of as "allow grandma to die", but if we accept that the period of 18-24 is crucial for adults to find themselves, then we essentially cut 1/3 of that time, which may have several decades of life impact, to add (maybe) a few more years to grandmas life. I am not saying it wasn't the right choice. I am saying that anybody who disagreed were not offered a chair at the decision table (or zoom room), but were actively bullied and called science deniers. Needless to say that doesn't make them want to hear our arguments either. Then there is the entire: no mask, masks maybe, masks are essential but you don't have to wear one that isn't made from simple cloth. Finally it seemed to me that the WHO was more concerned with making sure China didn't get insulted than to deal with the dicease. Anywhere else it would have been called China flu, and there wouldn't have been a debate over it. Suddenly we had to talk about how this was not Chinas fault and we even had these stupid "hug a Chinese person" campaigns in the beginning.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  I don't know why people say "we stole this time from kids" as if a pandemic let to roam free wouldn't be disruptive. How many kids are without one of their parents now because of covid? It's a global emergency, there is no option that allows people to pretend nothing is happening.
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    Please read my comment again - I put the lower age range at 18. That is not kids.