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There's a great /r/nba thread[0] on this post too, for those looking to see comments from an NBA community perspective. My couple notes on this post: 1) > For

There's a great /r/nba thread[0] on this post too, for those looking to see comments from an NBA community perspective. My couple notes on this post: 1) > For the past 20 years, I’ve occupied myself with social activism, my writing career Kareem is incredibly good at writing, and with the focus of his writing career, which is something that's rare. Many famous people spout opinions, but him putting a label of "writing career" is really cool to see. 2) It's hard to imaging, going back in time to when LeBron was in high school with his games being played on national tv already, and him still blowing all those expectations out of the water. Absurd how someone can do that. 3) When people talk about GOATs, it'll be interesting to see how much the perspective changes in terms of time frames. LeBron still being one of the best after multiple decades without sustaining injuries is incredibly impressive, and I think people will more and more start to consider high quality play over time just as important in determining who is the best as they do with an few year hot streak. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10x1c9w/abduljabbar_what_i_think_about_lebron_breaking_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10x1c9w/abduljabbar_wh...

insane_dreamer 4y ago
Not to stoke the flames of a religious war but I think this is why ultimately James will be recognized as the GOAT over MJ (until the next GOAT comes along)
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  Ultimately he won't, because counting stats aren't as important as being the best in the moment, especially when rules have changed that have turned NBA competitions into glorified 1990s era all star games. Players can literally take an extra step with the ball in their hands that they couldn't 20 years ago. Bigs can no longer crowd the paint. For guy who is as bad a shooter as Lebron, those are crazy benefits.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    LeBron isn't the GOAT because of the scoring title (just like Kareem wasn't the GOAT before him). He's the GOAT because for most of his 20 seasons (and counting), and the 1400+ games he's played so far, he was the best in the moment, as you put it. This compares with Jordan's 15 seasons -- 2 of which were with the Wizards where Jordan was nowhere near his prime anymore -- and 1100 games. The Lakers may be a mess, but LeBron is still a top 5 player in the league in his 20th season, and pretty close to his peak performance.
    - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      He's not the GOAT at all. Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.
      - adamsmith143 4y ago
        >Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. Typical Lebron hater. Steph isn't even in the same conversation as Lebron, he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. You can be a Golden State stan all you want but this is just silly. >He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up. All time points leader, 4th all time in assists, 4 rings, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 League MVPs, a scoring title, an assist title, and HES STILL NOT DONE. Idk if you ever actually watched NBA games since Lebron went Pro or what but he was clearly the most dominant player in the league for over a decade. 8 finals in a row. You sir are on drugs.
        panick21_ 4y ago
  - mcgannon2007 4y ago
    On the other hand, there were 10-15 more possessions per game in Kareem's career relative to LeBron's and, on average, approximately equivalent points per game. So a lot of this is a wash.
  - LanceH 4y ago
    He won't, because Nike spent billions of dollars convincing everyone MJ was the greatest. I'm also tired of the "wants it more" and "works the hardest" conversations. Somewhere out there is a dude who is working just as hard, but he's 5'6", has little fast twitch, and small hands. No matter how much he wants it, he'll never be an NBA all star.
    - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      Nike hasn't invested billions on Lebron?
      - LanceH 4y ago
        They didn't run his campaigns as him being the best ever, did they? MJ was still top dog at Nike, right? That also runs into my other theory of whoever was #1 when the mid 80's to early 90's rolled around stays at #1 due to branding becoming "modern". Skateboarding? Tony Hawk; Football video game: Madden. After that period of time, the brands stopped moving over for new things coming up.
- mattferderer 4y ago
  I don't believe you can compare GOATs across eras. MJ & others have said this. Anyone playing today has been able to build upon a ton of knowledge based on what the prior GOATs did. If they're not better than players 3 decades ago, that's pretty bad. Also the game is dramatically different, technology is better & medicine is better.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    I disagree. We're not comparing MJ to LBJ directly (as in, who would win if they played each other), nor are we measuring them against a fixed metric such as we can for runners (who we expect to be faster 30 years later). Rather, we are measuring them against the other players in their time. Yes, the tech and fitness is better today than in Jordan's era, but it's better for all of LeBron's contemporaries too who he had to beat and be better than. Same thing with the game rules changing -- it's easier for LBJ to score, but it's easier for his opponents to score too.
adamsmith143 4y ago
My unsolicited opinion is that Lebron is the goat because of his level of sustained excellence. 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams and 4 rings overall is actually mind boggling when you think about it. Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate and every team he joined instantly became a contender. Number 1 in points, currently 4 in assists, 9 or 10 in rebounds the numbers are just absurd. The totality of his game is unreal. I can admit MJ had a higher peak and was probably the better competitor but when he "retired" in the 93-94 season the Bulls still made it to the second round in the playoffs and barely lost to the Knicks in 7 games who then made it to the finals. Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami and even with only 2 rings they were definitely dominant.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  > Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate Yeah but partly that is because those teams traded everything they could trade, spend a huge amount of money, and once Lebron left they had to blow it all up. Trade their remaining good players, most of them specifically acquired to be good fits with Lebron but not that useful by themselves. In that sense Lebron basically did 'Slash and Burn agriculture'. He uses up all local resources, and then sets up a plan to move on, using his influence to engineer a good new situation. He then moves to that place, uses all the resources, and then moves on. > every team he joined instantly became a contender Because he picked teams to go to that he knew would be contenders. Are we just gone act he didn't engineer this situations? Like, its not that he went to some shit teams and made them good. He pick and built situations so he would join amazingly good team mates. He had 2 teams who had absurdly good 'Big 3s'. > 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams It should be noted that this is partly because he was in an incredibly bad eastern conference. Like absolutely historically terrible. And this is not some 'Lebron hater' take, if you look at the statistics like SRS for the other teams in the East in those 8 years, none of them were great. A few decent teams, but that it. The best teams he faces was the aging Celtics in 2011 and then the Bulls. Bulls were only around a short time and were a defense first team with a very young star (young stars basically never win in the NBA). The Bulls might have been competition but Rose got hurt. So for the next 6 years the competition was basically, Raptors and the Pacers, neither were all that good. While Lebron had a Big 3, the Pacers had basically had , and the Raptors basically ha no real star player. Who is the best player Lebron beat in 8 years going to the East finals? How many Top 10 players? So while its impressive he didn't make a mistake, and its impressive he pulled some of those old cavs teams to the finals, its isn't as monumental an achievement as its made out to be. > Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami Some of the second Cavs teams were pretty fantastic actually. Like seriously, the amount of talent on them was crazy. We also have to remember that Jordan had basically nothing on his team for years and had to face the Celtics (literally one of the best teams in history) and then Bad Boy Pistons (historically great team).

insane_dreamer 4y ago

Not to stoke the flames of a religious war but I think this is why ultimately James will be recognized as the GOAT over MJ (until the next GOAT comes along)

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
Ultimately he won't, because counting stats aren't as important as being the best in the moment, especially when rules have changed that have turned NBA competitions into glorified 1990s era all star games. Players can literally take an extra step with the ball in their hands that they couldn't 20 years ago. Bigs can no longer crowd the paint. For guy who is as bad a shooter as Lebron, those are crazy benefits.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  LeBron isn't the GOAT because of the scoring title (just like Kareem wasn't the GOAT before him). He's the GOAT because for most of his 20 seasons (and counting), and the 1400+ games he's played so far, he was the best in the moment, as you put it. This compares with Jordan's 15 seasons -- 2 of which were with the Wizards where Jordan was nowhere near his prime anymore -- and 1100 games. The Lakers may be a mess, but LeBron is still a top 5 player in the league in his 20th season, and pretty close to his peak performance.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    He's not the GOAT at all. Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.
    - adamsmith143 4y ago
      >Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015. Typical Lebron hater. Steph isn't even in the same conversation as Lebron, he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. You can be a Golden State stan all you want but this is just silly. >He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up. All time points leader, 4th all time in assists, 4 rings, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 League MVPs, a scoring title, an assist title, and HES STILL NOT DONE. Idk if you ever actually watched NBA games since Lebron went Pro or what but he was clearly the most dominant player in the league for over a decade. 8 finals in a row. You sir are on drugs.
      - panick21_ 4y ago
- mcgannon2007 4y ago
  On the other hand, there were 10-15 more possessions per game in Kareem's career relative to LeBron's and, on average, approximately equivalent points per game. So a lot of this is a wash.
- LanceH 4y ago
  He won't, because Nike spent billions of dollars convincing everyone MJ was the greatest. I'm also tired of the "wants it more" and "works the hardest" conversations. Somewhere out there is a dude who is working just as hard, but he's 5'6", has little fast twitch, and small hands. No matter how much he wants it, he'll never be an NBA all star.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    Nike hasn't invested billions on Lebron?
    - LanceH 4y ago
      They didn't run his campaigns as him being the best ever, did they? MJ was still top dog at Nike, right? That also runs into my other theory of whoever was #1 when the mid 80's to early 90's rolled around stays at #1 due to branding becoming "modern". Skateboarding? Tony Hawk; Football video game: Madden. After that period of time, the brands stopped moving over for new things coming up.
mattferderer 4y ago
I don't believe you can compare GOATs across eras. MJ & others have said this. Anyone playing today has been able to build upon a ton of knowledge based on what the prior GOATs did. If they're not better than players 3 decades ago, that's pretty bad. Also the game is dramatically different, technology is better & medicine is better.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  I disagree. We're not comparing MJ to LBJ directly (as in, who would win if they played each other), nor are we measuring them against a fixed metric such as we can for runners (who we expect to be faster 30 years later). Rather, we are measuring them against the other players in their time. Yes, the tech and fitness is better today than in Jordan's era, but it's better for all of LeBron's contemporaries too who he had to beat and be better than. Same thing with the game rules changing -- it's easier for LBJ to score, but it's easier for his opponents to score too.

adamsmith143 4y ago

My unsolicited opinion is that Lebron is the goat because of his level of sustained excellence. 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams and 4 rings overall is actually mind boggling when you think about it. Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate and every team he joined instantly became a contender. Number 1 in points, currently 4 in assists, 9 or 10 in rebounds the numbers are just absurd. The totality of his game is unreal. I can admit MJ had a higher peak and was probably the better competitor but when he "retired" in the 93-94 season the Bulls still made it to the second round in the playoffs and barely lost to the Knicks in 7 games who then made it to the finals. Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami and even with only 2 rings they were definitely dominant.

panick21_ 4y ago
> Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate Yeah but partly that is because those teams traded everything they could trade, spend a huge amount of money, and once Lebron left they had to blow it all up. Trade their remaining good players, most of them specifically acquired to be good fits with Lebron but not that useful by themselves. In that sense Lebron basically did 'Slash and Burn agriculture'. He uses up all local resources, and then sets up a plan to move on, using his influence to engineer a good new situation. He then moves to that place, uses all the resources, and then moves on. > every team he joined instantly became a contender Because he picked teams to go to that he knew would be contenders. Are we just gone act he didn't engineer this situations? Like, its not that he went to some shit teams and made them good. He pick and built situations so he would join amazingly good team mates. He had 2 teams who had absurdly good 'Big 3s'. > 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams It should be noted that this is partly because he was in an incredibly bad eastern conference. Like absolutely historically terrible. And this is not some 'Lebron hater' take, if you look at the statistics like SRS for the other teams in the East in those 8 years, none of them were great. A few decent teams, but that it. The best teams he faces was the aging Celtics in 2011 and then the Bulls. Bulls were only around a short time and were a defense first team with a very young star (young stars basically never win in the NBA). The Bulls might have been competition but Rose got hurt. So for the next 6 years the competition was basically, Raptors and the Pacers, neither were all that good. While Lebron had a Big 3, the Pacers had basically had , and the Raptors basically ha no real star player. Who is the best player Lebron beat in 8 years going to the East finals? How many Top 10 players? So while its impressive he didn't make a mistake, and its impressive he pulled some of those old cavs teams to the finals, its isn't as monumental an achievement as its made out to be. > Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami Some of the second Cavs teams were pretty fantastic actually. Like seriously, the amount of talent on them was crazy. We also have to remember that Jordan had basically nothing on his team for years and had to face the Celtics (literally one of the best teams in history) and then Bad Boy Pistons (historically great team).