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> the only reason … would be...that people of those backgrounds are inherently more lazy Why would laziness be the only possible reason? I grew up in a fundam

> the only reason … would be...that people of those backgrounds are inherently more lazy Why would laziness be the only possible reason? I grew up in a fundamental religious cult. The culture within that bubble instills a world view that does not value learning, and from the earliest age, kids in that environment are indoctrinated to believe certain things about the nature of the world that if true, would legitimately make “worldly” pursuits a bad use of time. I escaped the bubble, but plenty (most) of the people I grew up with did not. They work hard, provide for their families, and are absolutely not lazy. When a meaningfully large portion of your worldview is shaped and informed by those around you in childhood, there’s a lot more working against you than some notion of laziness. I’m well into my 30s and still work hard in therapy to undo the damage. I don’t think most people who haven’t experienced a broken upbringing can understand its impact. And for every “but so and so was fine despite everything”, there are 100 who were not.

zzzeek 4y ago
do people who grew up in these religions and really had no choice but to be indoctrinated in that culture therefore have less "merit" and are less deserving of success?
- causi 4y ago
  They deserve the same opportunity. They have already been unjustly denied it by the time they reach university, and no amount of pretending their B+ is as good as someone else's A+ is going to undo that. University slots are scarce, and therefore giving a spot to one person means taking it from another. Jim doesn't get to take Steve's first place sprint trophy just because Jim's chainsmoking stepdad diminished his lung capacity.
- haswell 4y ago
  Merit is orthogonal to religion, and not the same thing as opportunity. Everyone deserves an opportunity. Merit is earned. If you expand that question a bit to include a concrete scenario, the problem quickly becomes apparent: “Are people who had no choice but to be indoctrinated that pianos are evil less deserving of the award for best emerging pianist?” That question would depend entirely on whether or not that person learned to play the piano at an advanced level. We might marvel that someone with such early beliefs about pianos could overcome those beliefs (and this might even increase “merit” in the minds of some), but at no point does it make sense to invert the argument and conclude that children of the anti-piano cult are any more or less deserving of the award regardless of whether or not they ever pursued piano. It’s simply an irrelevant point. We might draw other conclusions like: anti-piano cults threaten equal opportunity, because they lead some to believe that they shouldn’t try the piano to begin with. Meritocracy is an equalizing force in that it allows people from all backgrounds to reach success regardless of background. I never finished a degree, but still acquired the skills to succeed, got accepted by a major employer and that’s all that matters. Meritocracy is the thing that actually allowed me to succeed despite my upbringing. Breaking out of the bubble to begin with is a separate problem entirely, and one that still needs solving.
- jocaal 4y ago
  The above post kindoff answers this. If the religion makes the persuit of learning certain things meaningless, then eventually you will find that the people who adopted that worldview are less capable in those things, than those who didn't.
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    so what is the "religion" that Black and Latino people belong to which is similarly making this pursuit "meaningless" as they have half the rate of higher education than white people ?
    - haswell 4y ago
      Ultimately, religion is just another expression of culture, and culture directly shapes what we believe is possible in the world. It seems unsurprising (but tragic) that the enslavement of a race over hundreds of years would leave deep imprints about the nature of meaning on the resulting culture. Does this fully account for the discrepancy you mention? I’m sure there are other factors that play a part, and the fact that racism is still alive and well almost certainly is one of those factors - and another cultural artifact that hasn’t been fully addressed.

zzzeek 4y ago

do people who grew up in these religions and really had no choice but to be indoctrinated in that culture therefore have less "merit" and are less deserving of success?

causi 4y ago
They deserve the same opportunity. They have already been unjustly denied it by the time they reach university, and no amount of pretending their B+ is as good as someone else's A+ is going to undo that. University slots are scarce, and therefore giving a spot to one person means taking it from another. Jim doesn't get to take Steve's first place sprint trophy just because Jim's chainsmoking stepdad diminished his lung capacity.
haswell 4y ago
Merit is orthogonal to religion, and not the same thing as opportunity. Everyone deserves an opportunity. Merit is earned. If you expand that question a bit to include a concrete scenario, the problem quickly becomes apparent: “Are people who had no choice but to be indoctrinated that pianos are evil less deserving of the award for best emerging pianist?” That question would depend entirely on whether or not that person learned to play the piano at an advanced level. We might marvel that someone with such early beliefs about pianos could overcome those beliefs (and this might even increase “merit” in the minds of some), but at no point does it make sense to invert the argument and conclude that children of the anti-piano cult are any more or less deserving of the award regardless of whether or not they ever pursued piano. It’s simply an irrelevant point. We might draw other conclusions like: anti-piano cults threaten equal opportunity, because they lead some to believe that they shouldn’t try the piano to begin with. Meritocracy is an equalizing force in that it allows people from all backgrounds to reach success regardless of background. I never finished a degree, but still acquired the skills to succeed, got accepted by a major employer and that’s all that matters. Meritocracy is the thing that actually allowed me to succeed despite my upbringing. Breaking out of the bubble to begin with is a separate problem entirely, and one that still needs solving.
jocaal 4y ago
The above post kindoff answers this. If the religion makes the persuit of learning certain things meaningless, then eventually you will find that the people who adopted that worldview are less capable in those things, than those who didn't.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  so what is the "religion" that Black and Latino people belong to which is similarly making this pursuit "meaningless" as they have half the rate of higher education than white people ?
  - haswell 4y ago
    Ultimately, religion is just another expression of culture, and culture directly shapes what we believe is possible in the world. It seems unsurprising (but tragic) that the enslavement of a race over hundreds of years would leave deep imprints about the nature of meaning on the resulting culture. Does this fully account for the discrepancy you mention? I’m sure there are other factors that play a part, and the fact that racism is still alive and well almost certainly is one of those factors - and another cultural artifact that hasn’t been fully addressed.