8 ms·

For all those in the US who hear nothing but horror stories about how bad it would also be if you lived in another country, particularly in Canada, I always fee

by xipho 4y ago

For all those in the US who hear nothing but horror stories about how bad it would also be if you lived in another country, particularly in Canada, I always feel it's important to relate stories like this. My father died in Canada last year after a 9 month battle with cancer during which time he spent almost 2 months in cancer ward. He was not rich. He recieved cutting edge targeted chemo-therapy. He died peacefully with the aid of MAID in his small home town. It cost my mother $150.

fortran77 4y ago
[flagged]
- hobs 4y ago
  As a grandchild of multiple people who went out HARD and died badly, your comments come off as the height of insensitive boorishness and you should think hard about what got you to this place. Having a peaceful death is something I wish, even for people like you.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    How sensitive of you, wishing death on a person just for not having the same opinion as you do. The whole world is by now familiar with the Canadian death programs and how the government uses economical reasoning to justify them. That has nothing to do with your grandparents.
    - hobs 4y ago
      You don't have to wish the inevitable on anyone, and making it easy is a kindness because in your final moments of pain, fear, and anxiety you might find yourself wanting to crawl up the walls screaming while your cancer riddled body fails you. You might be in memory care, slowly draining out until there's nothing left, committing suicide by tearing out your catheter and refusing medical attention, taking hours to die in agony. You might find yourself in such brutal pain that the only haven you have is deep in drug induced stupors, leaving yourself a hollow shell with tubes in their face and not much else. Which part of these curses would you wish on yourself or others? I have seen them all up close and this is why I wish us all an easy exit.
      - carlosjobim 4y ago
        Your suffering does not give you any right to wish death on others, and that's how you framed your last reply. If you'd said that in real life to a person, how do you think a court of law would have looked at it?
  - Danieru 4y ago
    As yes the new modern Canadian greeting: "And a quick cheap death to you too". You say "peaceful" but did you actually ask them after the death if it was peaceful?
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      If you look around in this comment section, you will see the person was adamant about doing this of their own volition. Jesus, access to a painless and graceful death is not about saving money. Being propped up by machines and procedures at a time in your life where every single time you go under the knife you are risking severe infection and miserable death is horrific. Nobody is forcing you to die before your time. Get over yourself.
- PeterWhittaker 4y ago
  MAID isn’t done to save money. It is done to save dignity. It is a peaceful and respectful way for a person to die at the moment of their choosing. The cost quoted in the comment would have been comparable without MAID. The suffering likely would have been worse. (Patients most often choose MAID for that reason.)
mhb 4y ago
MAiD == Medical Assistance in Dying You're welcome.
- brink 4y ago
  https://imgur.com/a/xpmTedB https://imgur.com/a/xpmTedB
FpUser 4y ago
And if he did not go for MAID? Will our healthcare cover the care? I am Canadian but have no clue about this particular side.
- xipho 4y ago
  I can only counter the fear with more stories. Of course at this point in his life he had 4 doctors. His cancer doctor was not happy with the decision, she wanted to (and they could perhaps have), kept him strung along for several more months. His cardiologist and nephrologist (cancer was targeting his heart and kidneys) has done multiple proceedures and had plans for the rest of his life (again, we're talking months, at most). His family doctor was a wonderful provider and friend. There were no whispers from any medical staff saying "do it", "do it". My father was fiercely logical, probably akin to many who post here. It was his choice to end his life on his terms. I have the conversations where he was assessed recorded, the only coercion was his. I recognize MAID has detractors and is a very complex subject. We still (of course) discuss what happened and are grappling with his loss, but from my perspective it was empowering, it minimized suffering (for all of us, not just Dad) and gave someone their last feeling of agency.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    I am in no way trying to judge here. My question was simply who would have had to pay for his care if he did not go for MAID.
ErikVandeWater 4y ago
> It cost my mother $150. Sure, but by being taxpayers, your parents already paid a substantial portion of the cost forward by paying for the healthcare of other people. Perhaps they were net takers from the system, but presumably people on HN have parents that are net contributors to the system.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- madsbuch 4y ago
  The tax pressure is comparable from the US to other western countries so it seems like it is a questions of prioritizing those tax money.
Danieru 4y ago
Only in Canada is sending your sick elderly out on an ice float called "health" care. Cheap though.
- PeterWhittaker 4y ago
  Only if the want to go: there is a solid process for determining consent. First, the applicant must pass an interview with a social worker. This is followed by interviews with two independent doctors. Finally, the day of, anyone accompanying the family is asked to wait while “the lines are put in”. The wait is far longer than the time required to put in lines: they interview the patient again, this time to ensure that they are there of their own volition and not being pressured by the people accompanying them. The entire is graceful and professional.
refurb 4y ago
My grandfather in law died of dementia in Canada and it cost $5k per month for the years he was there.
luckylion 4y ago
Cancer treatments typically falls under medical expenses, something a health insurance will cover. Assisted living or long-term care for the eldery in a nursing home usually does not, so I'm not sure what your example tells us about the differences.
maerF0x0 4y ago
While as a relatively healthy person I've been continuously disappointed at paying approximately $1500 a month in taxes[1] towards the Canadian public health care system (a quick google suggests ~30% of tax revenues), I also was happy to see that my grandpa spending ~6 months in palliative care cost them very little (if anything), compared to something like $180K in the US. I think the biggest point of contention is that reasonably well kept and healthy people are receiving little to nothing for their money in the present. eg, I got tons of push back asking for simple lab tests like cRP or dermatology cancer screening which would have been less than 10% of what I contribute to the system. Another time I literally waited in a ER room until my loss of blood made me a triage priority. The amount of resources available due to the market distortions means they have to defer you until you're worse off than when you walked in. Compare that to fast (always <1 hr, even for non emergency things like a dislocated finger) and reasonable waits anytime I've been to a hospital in the US. Mind you I've also probably spent a total of $40k (not my portion) in ~8 yrs of residency between insurance costs and copays, more than half due to a heart attack scare and ER trip that ended up being myocarditis from the vaccine. So what's my point in all this rambling? I think there's a ton of unlocked value in the US system to do more preventative care, but the US is anti-paternalism and often lets people do stuff that costs them in the long run (unwittingly or knowingly). But there's a hidden truth to Canada's system appearing so rosy -- at least as the payer and consumer I feel I get more for less in the US. Whereas in Canada you have better average outcomes because you take marginal care (eg preventative tests) from those who pay, and give it to those who cannot pay but may have a marginally more improvable conditions (eg bleeding out, having a heart attack). [1]: compare to about a quarter of that in medicare on much higher earnings
- dfinninger 4y ago
  I’ve also sat in an ER, waiting to be seen while in a lot of pain or with someone in a lot of pain or with visible injury. The only time I’ve actually been triaged immediately was when I had so much blood running down my face that the nurses didn’t want me to scare others in the waiting room. This was all in Dallas at good hospitals. I’ve waited months to be able to see a doctor. In fact, I’ve just recently seen a dermatologist after a 9-month wait. No one else had anything sooner. I’ve learned with the US system there are a lot of hoops you have to jump through for care if you want insurance to be happy. I have to go to one or two other clinics or quick care facilities in order to get in to see the doctor that I actually need. And once I have a prescription it’s always a prior-authorization fight to actually get the meds. And all of this, knowing that I can’t ever take a sabbatical since COBRA, on top of my monthly expenses, would be prohibitive. So, it feels like the US system is the worst of all worlds. I’ve got the waiting and the pushback and the expense.

by xipho 4y ago

fortran77 4y ago

[flagged]

hobs 4y ago
As a grandchild of multiple people who went out HARD and died badly, your comments come off as the height of insensitive boorishness and you should think hard about what got you to this place. Having a peaceful death is something I wish, even for people like you.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  How sensitive of you, wishing death on a person just for not having the same opinion as you do. The whole world is by now familiar with the Canadian death programs and how the government uses economical reasoning to justify them. That has nothing to do with your grandparents.
  - hobs 4y ago
    You don't have to wish the inevitable on anyone, and making it easy is a kindness because in your final moments of pain, fear, and anxiety you might find yourself wanting to crawl up the walls screaming while your cancer riddled body fails you. You might be in memory care, slowly draining out until there's nothing left, committing suicide by tearing out your catheter and refusing medical attention, taking hours to die in agony. You might find yourself in such brutal pain that the only haven you have is deep in drug induced stupors, leaving yourself a hollow shell with tubes in their face and not much else. Which part of these curses would you wish on yourself or others? I have seen them all up close and this is why I wish us all an easy exit.
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      Your suffering does not give you any right to wish death on others, and that's how you framed your last reply. If you'd said that in real life to a person, how do you think a court of law would have looked at it?
- Danieru 4y ago
  As yes the new modern Canadian greeting: "And a quick cheap death to you too". You say "peaceful" but did you actually ask them after the death if it was peaceful?
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    If you look around in this comment section, you will see the person was adamant about doing this of their own volition. Jesus, access to a painless and graceful death is not about saving money. Being propped up by machines and procedures at a time in your life where every single time you go under the knife you are risking severe infection and miserable death is horrific. Nobody is forcing you to die before your time. Get over yourself.
PeterWhittaker 4y ago
MAID isn’t done to save money. It is done to save dignity. It is a peaceful and respectful way for a person to die at the moment of their choosing. The cost quoted in the comment would have been comparable without MAID. The suffering likely would have been worse. (Patients most often choose MAID for that reason.)

mhb 4y ago

MAiD == Medical Assistance in Dying You're welcome.

brink 4y ago
https://imgur.com/a/xpmTedB https://imgur.com/a/xpmTedB

FpUser 4y ago

And if he did not go for MAID? Will our healthcare cover the care? I am Canadian but have no clue about this particular side.

xipho 4y ago
I can only counter the fear with more stories. Of course at this point in his life he had 4 doctors. His cancer doctor was not happy with the decision, she wanted to (and they could perhaps have), kept him strung along for several more months. His cardiologist and nephrologist (cancer was targeting his heart and kidneys) has done multiple proceedures and had plans for the rest of his life (again, we're talking months, at most). His family doctor was a wonderful provider and friend. There were no whispers from any medical staff saying "do it", "do it". My father was fiercely logical, probably akin to many who post here. It was his choice to end his life on his terms. I have the conversations where he was assessed recorded, the only coercion was his. I recognize MAID has detractors and is a very complex subject. We still (of course) discuss what happened and are grappling with his loss, but from my perspective it was empowering, it minimized suffering (for all of us, not just Dad) and gave someone their last feeling of agency.
- FpUser 4y ago
  I am in no way trying to judge here. My question was simply who would have had to pay for his care if he did not go for MAID.

ErikVandeWater 4y ago

> It cost my mother $150. Sure, but by being taxpayers, your parents already paid a substantial portion of the cost forward by paying for the healthcare of other people. Perhaps they were net takers from the system, but presumably people on HN have parents that are net contributors to the system.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
madsbuch 4y ago
The tax pressure is comparable from the US to other western countries so it seems like it is a questions of prioritizing those tax money.

Danieru 4y ago

Only in Canada is sending your sick elderly out on an ice float called "health" care. Cheap though.

PeterWhittaker 4y ago
Only if the want to go: there is a solid process for determining consent. First, the applicant must pass an interview with a social worker. This is followed by interviews with two independent doctors. Finally, the day of, anyone accompanying the family is asked to wait while “the lines are put in”. The wait is far longer than the time required to put in lines: they interview the patient again, this time to ensure that they are there of their own volition and not being pressured by the people accompanying them. The entire is graceful and professional.

refurb 4y ago

My grandfather in law died of dementia in Canada and it cost $5k per month for the years he was there.

luckylion 4y ago

Cancer treatments typically falls under medical expenses, something a health insurance will cover. Assisted living or long-term care for the eldery in a nursing home usually does not, so I'm not sure what your example tells us about the differences.

maerF0x0 4y ago

While as a relatively healthy person I've been continuously disappointed at paying approximately $1500 a month in taxes[1] towards the Canadian public health care system (a quick google suggests ~30% of tax revenues), I also was happy to see that my grandpa spending ~6 months in palliative care cost them very little (if anything), compared to something like $180K in the US. I think the biggest point of contention is that reasonably well kept and healthy people are receiving little to nothing for their money in the present. eg, I got tons of push back asking for simple lab tests like cRP or dermatology cancer screening which would have been less than 10% of what I contribute to the system. Another time I literally waited in a ER room until my loss of blood made me a triage priority. The amount of resources available due to the market distortions means they have to defer you until you're worse off than when you walked in. Compare that to fast (always <1 hr, even for non emergency things like a dislocated finger) and reasonable waits anytime I've been to a hospital in the US. Mind you I've also probably spent a total of $40k (not my portion) in ~8 yrs of residency between insurance costs and copays, more than half due to a heart attack scare and ER trip that ended up being myocarditis from the vaccine. So what's my point in all this rambling? I think there's a ton of unlocked value in the US system to do more preventative care, but the US is anti-paternalism and often lets people do stuff that costs them in the long run (unwittingly or knowingly). But there's a hidden truth to Canada's system appearing so rosy -- at least as the payer and consumer I feel I get more for less in the US. Whereas in Canada you have better average outcomes because you take marginal care (eg preventative tests) from those who pay, and give it to those who cannot pay but may have a marginally more improvable conditions (eg bleeding out, having a heart attack). [1]: compare to about a quarter of that in medicare on much higher earnings

dfinninger 4y ago
I’ve also sat in an ER, waiting to be seen while in a lot of pain or with someone in a lot of pain or with visible injury. The only time I’ve actually been triaged immediately was when I had so much blood running down my face that the nurses didn’t want me to scare others in the waiting room. This was all in Dallas at good hospitals. I’ve waited months to be able to see a doctor. In fact, I’ve just recently seen a dermatologist after a 9-month wait. No one else had anything sooner. I’ve learned with the US system there are a lot of hoops you have to jump through for care if you want insurance to be happy. I have to go to one or two other clinics or quick care facilities in order to get in to see the doctor that I actually need. And once I have a prescription it’s always a prior-authorization fight to actually get the meds. And all of this, knowing that I can’t ever take a sabbatical since COBRA, on top of my monthly expenses, would be prohibitive. So, it feels like the US system is the worst of all worlds. I’ve got the waiting and the pushback and the expense.