7 ms·

To be blunt, I do not think I desire to eek out a few more years of my life hooked up to life support, taking medicines that prevent me from being me, and poopi

by pard68 4y ago

To be blunt, I do not think I desire to eek out a few more years of my life hooked up to life support, taking medicines that prevent me from being me, and pooping my pants. I remember my grandfathers last years (both in nursing homes, hooked to machines, drugged out of their minds) and I do not wish for that. I would rather die a few years earlier than live my last few years this way. It'd sure cost less too.

x86x87 4y ago
This is the way a person that is far away from death thinks. No matter what you think now, you will still want to live when death is near. Even if the conditions are suboptimal.
- sbarzowski 4y ago
  I wouldn’t generalize here.
- technotony 4y ago
  What's your evidence for this? In my experience, losing both my parents and all grandparents, everyone was ready to go long before they did. My dad passed away comfortably in his sleep in reasonable health (for 84 year old) and he'd been talking about being ready for months. My grandmother told us she wished she was dead like all her friends for a decade before she passed away (she was late 90s). My mother had cancer and chose to go at her own time like one of the comments above about MAID.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Similar here. My grandfather told me he prayed for death to come a few months before actually dying. So it does depend on the individual and their specific circumstances.
    - tfandango 4y ago
      I agree, very much depends on the individual. Currently witnessing a 94-year-old who can no longer get out of bed who absolutely does not want to die. Otherwise, I'm convinced it would have happened by now. I'm not surprised though, it's her personality.
      - throwaway892238 4y ago
        It's definitely a lot of things, like religious beliefs, personality, fear, guilt. And I think our society is absolutely terrified of death. A rational person might reason, "Well, I'm only a burden now, I'm not going to get any more enjoyment out of life, and I'm going to die soon anyway. This is a perfect time to end my life." But we aren't taught to think like that. We're taught that death is the worst thing that can happen to you, that when you die you might go to a place full of fire and burning and torture forever, that trying to extend your life (exercise, nutrition, psychology, cosmetics, etc) is the ultimate goal. We are not taught to get the most out of life when we're young, we're not taught the practical skills that would give us more contentment through life, and we're not taught that death is a natural and normal part of life. We need a class in school called "don't fear, just plan: organize your way to a happy life and be fine with dying sooner." Teach people how to stop sitting around wondering how to be happy, and just give simple practical skills and workbooks. Things like "how to pick your career", "how to choose where to live", "how to actually manage your finances", "how to make friends", "how to get a significant other", "how to manage your emotions", "how to deal with conflict", "how to deal with a life change", "how to enjoy life for free", "how to balance work and life", etc. There are answers to all these things, but they aren't taught in school; we're just expected to bump into them somewhere in life, after decades of grasping around pretending like we know what we're doing. We waste so much of life because nobody has taught us what to do. By the time you're 60, you should have already had a vivid, exciting life full of friends and opportunities and special moments. But many of us haven't! I put it down to simply not learning how. If we expect every kid to learn completely useless shit like Calculus, we should definitely teach them the more important life skills sooner.
  - nebulous1 4y ago
    I'm not sure that anecdotal evidence should really be at play here. For instance, the only person that I personally knew who paid a Dignitas subscription chose not to go through with it, but that doesn't demonstrate anything about the population at large. Terry Pratchett, after being diagnosed with early-onset Alzheimer's, made a documentary called Choosing To Die, which you might be interested in. He had stated that he wished to die by assisted suicide, but ultimately Terry died at home from Alzheimer's.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    Given the choice between living and dying I believe a vast majority of people choose living. That being said I think assisted suicide should be an option and everyone should have this option.
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    You're forgetting there's still a huge percentage of people that think suicide is immoral and won't do it.
- abeppu 4y ago
  I think _some_ people will want to continue to live, and some will not. Making confident assertions about someone else's future preferences seems fundamentally unreasonable. I recall my grandmother in the hospital with pancreatitis, in serious pain, saying she was ready to die, but her doctors reassuring everyone that actually her situation probably wasn't life threatening. She was in her 90s already. She had outlived her husband by decades by that point. She had outlived multiple batches of friends at her retirement community. She did live for a few years after that incident, but I understand why she was ready to accept death.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    Why is it unreasonable? Biologically we're hardwired to want to live.
- stephc_int13 4y ago
  Not sure about that. This is under-reported but there is a very high number of suicide in this age category. I don't think the desire to live vanishes, but some of us are simply not willing to live miserably for months or years. At some point it is clear that there is no turning back, being stuck in bed for a few days or weeks can be acceptable, but not if there is zero hope of regaining autonomy. Also, I am not found of the business side of this, I think this is extorsion, preying on the weak.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    Yes. It's the pain and the suffering that makes people maybe want to let go. But that does not equal wanting to die.
- steego 4y ago
  It’s how you think. People plan and choose to exit early all the time. Some people don’t want to live, even when death is nowhere near, but stick around because they don’t want to devastate their family. Honestly, you sound like someone who likes to pretend to have insight into the human mind, but you can’t be bothered to actually invest the time listening to people you don’t understand.
- sshine 4y ago
  > No matter what you think now, you will still want to live when death is near. Not true. My father wanted to die for the last 6 years of his life. He would talk about it and obsess about his death in eager anticipation. His last words that followed by three days of not eating or drinking were "Can't this go any faster?" Just not wanting to live, and not being depressed about it, made transition easier for me personally. He was never in pain during this time, so I didn't feel compelled to help him die.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  When my grandmother got cancer the 2nd time, she decided that she did not want to suffer treatment to eek out a few more months or years. She lived at home until she died. When she could no longer care for herself, a hospice nurse came twice a day. When the end was close, family moved into the house, and children were taken out of school. She pass in the comfort of a familiar setting surrounded by loved ones, and everyone witnessed her last breath and death rattle. It was a very wholesome experience and how I would want to go.
- ensignavenger 4y ago
  I've known dying folks that still feel as the above describes. I'm sure there are also lots that change their mind.
mhb 4y ago
> I would rather die a few years earlier than live my last few years this way. What's your plan?
- throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
  I've spent a great deal of time coming up with my plan. My plan is to NOT seek a fix to everything that can possibly go wrong. For example, I'm 56 and have never had a colonoscopy and I don't intend to get one. If I get colon cancer, then so be it. If I get cancer, it's doubtful that I would go through chemotherapy. I'd rather leave life earlier than try to squeeze out every drop possible and end up withering away in a nursing home.
  - circlefavshape 4y ago
    "For example, I'm 56 and have never had a colonoscopy and I don't intend to get one. If I get colon cancer, then so be it." You'd rather die than have a tube stuck up your arse for 5 minutes? A colonoscopy is really not that big a deal
    - throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
      Once more -- my plan is to NOT seek a fix to everything that can possibly go wrong. Colonoscopy is 1 example.
    - pard68 4y ago
      Most recent study shows that a colonoscopy does not have any effect on cancer outcomes or early detection.
parrot987 4y ago
I agree with you. I've seen how bad end-of-life can get, through my grandparents. Dementia is a slow and miserable way to go.
- throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
  My father is slowly declining in an assisted living facility. It costs a fortune because we have to provide 24-hr a day sitters to be with him. The last time I saw him I don't think he knew who I was.
  - pard68 4y ago
    Yes, my last memory of my grandfather was him mistaking me for a friend of his. I'd rather my children and grandchildren see me finish my race strong and with my wits about me, then drugged into a stupor.
    - nh23423fefe 4y ago
      Same. My grandmother was pissing herself and confused most days. What was gained?
nebulous1 4y ago
Your thoughts mirror my own, however I should point out that thinking this now and making that choice when the time actually comes are quite different things.
- pard68 4y ago
  Especially when that choice is made for you by others. One grandfather did not wish to go into a home but his daughters insisted and put him there.
Y_Y 4y ago
Unless you're making a pun about your reluctance to suffer in the winter of life, I think the word should be spelled "eke".
- pard68 4y ago
  Huh didn't know "eke" was the right spelling, thanks
rizach8 4y ago
Say doctor gave you 4 more weeks to live. You can now chose to be on life support for 2 more year at the cost of pooping pants and being on drugs. I bet, life support does not sound so bad.
- throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
  I'd take the 4 weeks. Why? Less suffering for myself and my family. Less financial burden for my family. As bonus, get to leave the insanity of this world sooner.
  - pard68 4y ago
    Same. Ripping the bandaid off is always better.
- AllegedAlec 4y ago
  > Suppose that a god announced that you were going to die tomorrow “or the day after.” Unless you were a complete coward you wouldn’t kick up a fuss about which day it was—what difference could it make? Now recognize that the difference between years from now and tomorrow is just as small.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  It absolutely does sound bad.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Since I'll likely be leaving this world through the horrors of dementia and alzheimers, I'd take the 4 weeks, because by the end of the 2 years I wouldn't even be me. Which parts of your body are you willing to let degrade just to continue breathing and reading reddit about stuff that you will never live to see happen anyway?
rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
Having seen this for other family members: I have a compressed nitrogen cylinder reserved in the garage for this purpose. I hope my wits are about me to use it, or that a DNR keeps any hospital stay as short as practical.
mbfg 4y ago
While i agree with you, our society (at least the US society) actively works to thwart you ability to do so.
- pard68 4y ago
  Geriatrics is what fuels the medical establishment, that and psychiatric meds.

by pard68 4y ago

x86x87 4y ago

This is the way a person that is far away from death thinks. No matter what you think now, you will still want to live when death is near. Even if the conditions are suboptimal.

sbarzowski 4y ago
I wouldn’t generalize here.
technotony 4y ago
What's your evidence for this? In my experience, losing both my parents and all grandparents, everyone was ready to go long before they did. My dad passed away comfortably in his sleep in reasonable health (for 84 year old) and he'd been talking about being ready for months. My grandmother told us she wished she was dead like all her friends for a decade before she passed away (she was late 90s). My mother had cancer and chose to go at her own time like one of the comments above about MAID.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Similar here. My grandfather told me he prayed for death to come a few months before actually dying. So it does depend on the individual and their specific circumstances.
  - tfandango 4y ago
    I agree, very much depends on the individual. Currently witnessing a 94-year-old who can no longer get out of bed who absolutely does not want to die. Otherwise, I'm convinced it would have happened by now. I'm not surprised though, it's her personality.
    - throwaway892238 4y ago
      It's definitely a lot of things, like religious beliefs, personality, fear, guilt. And I think our society is absolutely terrified of death. A rational person might reason, "Well, I'm only a burden now, I'm not going to get any more enjoyment out of life, and I'm going to die soon anyway. This is a perfect time to end my life." But we aren't taught to think like that. We're taught that death is the worst thing that can happen to you, that when you die you might go to a place full of fire and burning and torture forever, that trying to extend your life (exercise, nutrition, psychology, cosmetics, etc) is the ultimate goal. We are not taught to get the most out of life when we're young, we're not taught the practical skills that would give us more contentment through life, and we're not taught that death is a natural and normal part of life. We need a class in school called "don't fear, just plan: organize your way to a happy life and be fine with dying sooner." Teach people how to stop sitting around wondering how to be happy, and just give simple practical skills and workbooks. Things like "how to pick your career", "how to choose where to live", "how to actually manage your finances", "how to make friends", "how to get a significant other", "how to manage your emotions", "how to deal with conflict", "how to deal with a life change", "how to enjoy life for free", "how to balance work and life", etc. There are answers to all these things, but they aren't taught in school; we're just expected to bump into them somewhere in life, after decades of grasping around pretending like we know what we're doing. We waste so much of life because nobody has taught us what to do. By the time you're 60, you should have already had a vivid, exciting life full of friends and opportunities and special moments. But many of us haven't! I put it down to simply not learning how. If we expect every kid to learn completely useless shit like Calculus, we should definitely teach them the more important life skills sooner.
- nebulous1 4y ago
  I'm not sure that anecdotal evidence should really be at play here. For instance, the only person that I personally knew who paid a Dignitas subscription chose not to go through with it, but that doesn't demonstrate anything about the population at large. Terry Pratchett, after being diagnosed with early-onset Alzheimer's, made a documentary called Choosing To Die, which you might be interested in. He had stated that he wished to die by assisted suicide, but ultimately Terry died at home from Alzheimer's.
- x86x87 4y ago
  Given the choice between living and dying I believe a vast majority of people choose living. That being said I think assisted suicide should be an option and everyone should have this option.
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  You're forgetting there's still a huge percentage of people that think suicide is immoral and won't do it.
abeppu 4y ago
I think _some_ people will want to continue to live, and some will not. Making confident assertions about someone else's future preferences seems fundamentally unreasonable. I recall my grandmother in the hospital with pancreatitis, in serious pain, saying she was ready to die, but her doctors reassuring everyone that actually her situation probably wasn't life threatening. She was in her 90s already. She had outlived her husband by decades by that point. She had outlived multiple batches of friends at her retirement community. She did live for a few years after that incident, but I understand why she was ready to accept death.
- x86x87 4y ago
  Why is it unreasonable? Biologically we're hardwired to want to live.
stephc_int13 4y ago
Not sure about that. This is under-reported but there is a very high number of suicide in this age category. I don't think the desire to live vanishes, but some of us are simply not willing to live miserably for months or years. At some point it is clear that there is no turning back, being stuck in bed for a few days or weeks can be acceptable, but not if there is zero hope of regaining autonomy. Also, I am not found of the business side of this, I think this is extorsion, preying on the weak.
- x86x87 4y ago
  Yes. It's the pain and the suffering that makes people maybe want to let go. But that does not equal wanting to die.
steego 4y ago
It’s how you think. People plan and choose to exit early all the time. Some people don’t want to live, even when death is nowhere near, but stick around because they don’t want to devastate their family. Honestly, you sound like someone who likes to pretend to have insight into the human mind, but you can’t be bothered to actually invest the time listening to people you don’t understand.
sshine 4y ago
> No matter what you think now, you will still want to live when death is near. Not true. My father wanted to die for the last 6 years of his life. He would talk about it and obsess about his death in eager anticipation. His last words that followed by three days of not eating or drinking were "Can't this go any faster?" Just not wanting to live, and not being depressed about it, made transition easier for me personally. He was never in pain during this time, so I didn't feel compelled to help him die.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
When my grandmother got cancer the 2nd time, she decided that she did not want to suffer treatment to eek out a few more months or years. She lived at home until she died. When she could no longer care for herself, a hospice nurse came twice a day. When the end was close, family moved into the house, and children were taken out of school. She pass in the comfort of a familiar setting surrounded by loved ones, and everyone witnessed her last breath and death rattle. It was a very wholesome experience and how I would want to go.
ensignavenger 4y ago
I've known dying folks that still feel as the above describes. I'm sure there are also lots that change their mind.

mhb 4y ago

> I would rather die a few years earlier than live my last few years this way. What's your plan?

throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
I've spent a great deal of time coming up with my plan. My plan is to NOT seek a fix to everything that can possibly go wrong. For example, I'm 56 and have never had a colonoscopy and I don't intend to get one. If I get colon cancer, then so be it. If I get cancer, it's doubtful that I would go through chemotherapy. I'd rather leave life earlier than try to squeeze out every drop possible and end up withering away in a nursing home.
- circlefavshape 4y ago
  "For example, I'm 56 and have never had a colonoscopy and I don't intend to get one. If I get colon cancer, then so be it." You'd rather die than have a tube stuck up your arse for 5 minutes? A colonoscopy is really not that big a deal
  - throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
    Once more -- my plan is to NOT seek a fix to everything that can possibly go wrong. Colonoscopy is 1 example.
  - pard68 4y ago
    Most recent study shows that a colonoscopy does not have any effect on cancer outcomes or early detection.

parrot987 4y ago

I agree with you. I've seen how bad end-of-life can get, through my grandparents. Dementia is a slow and miserable way to go.

throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
My father is slowly declining in an assisted living facility. It costs a fortune because we have to provide 24-hr a day sitters to be with him. The last time I saw him I don't think he knew who I was.
- pard68 4y ago
  Yes, my last memory of my grandfather was him mistaking me for a friend of his. I'd rather my children and grandchildren see me finish my race strong and with my wits about me, then drugged into a stupor.
  - nh23423fefe 4y ago
    Same. My grandmother was pissing herself and confused most days. What was gained?

nebulous1 4y ago

Your thoughts mirror my own, however I should point out that thinking this now and making that choice when the time actually comes are quite different things.

pard68 4y ago
Especially when that choice is made for you by others. One grandfather did not wish to go into a home but his daughters insisted and put him there.

Y_Y 4y ago

Unless you're making a pun about your reluctance to suffer in the winter of life, I think the word should be spelled "eke".

pard68 4y ago
Huh didn't know "eke" was the right spelling, thanks

rizach8 4y ago

Say doctor gave you 4 more weeks to live. You can now chose to be on life support for 2 more year at the cost of pooping pants and being on drugs. I bet, life support does not sound so bad.

throwawaycr4zy 4y ago
I'd take the 4 weeks. Why? Less suffering for myself and my family. Less financial burden for my family. As bonus, get to leave the insanity of this world sooner.
- pard68 4y ago
  Same. Ripping the bandaid off is always better.
AllegedAlec 4y ago
> Suppose that a god announced that you were going to die tomorrow “or the day after.” Unless you were a complete coward you wouldn’t kick up a fuss about which day it was—what difference could it make? Now recognize that the difference between years from now and tomorrow is just as small.
oneoff786 4y ago
It absolutely does sound bad.
mrguyorama 4y ago
Since I'll likely be leaving this world through the horrors of dementia and alzheimers, I'd take the 4 weeks, because by the end of the 2 years I wouldn't even be me. Which parts of your body are you willing to let degrade just to continue breathing and reading reddit about stuff that you will never live to see happen anyway?

rainbowzootsuit 4y ago

Having seen this for other family members: I have a compressed nitrogen cylinder reserved in the garage for this purpose. I hope my wits are about me to use it, or that a DNR keeps any hospital stay as short as practical.

mbfg 4y ago

While i agree with you, our society (at least the US society) actively works to thwart you ability to do so.

pard68 4y ago
Geriatrics is what fuels the medical establishment, that and psychiatric meds.