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thats funny, because traditionally when a company signs with a union, there are semi standardized rates of pay for certain amount of experience and education et

thats funny, because traditionally when a company signs with a union, there are semi standardized rates of pay for certain amount of experience and education etc, and then companies tend to go "well this is what we agreed to with the union", and the worker is in a very bad position to negotiate different. You already have all the power in the world, YOU, the worker, can decide what you're willing to do, and what you demand in return for it. What more could you possibly need? What kind of logic is being employed here? why are we treating the common worker like they are so retarded as to "obviously need" a union to make the good decisions for them?

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
You seem to be missing the whole point of a union - “collective bargaining”. If one worker at UPS says “give me air conditioning in my truck or I refuse to work”, management will just fire them. If every worker at UPS says the same thing, the company is put in a serious position and must negotiate. This has nothing to do with how smart the workers are. A single worker does not have the power that a union has. A single worker cannot make demands of the company with any real negotiating power, unless it is a very small company with specialized needs. For what it’s worth I’m one of those people that is able to negotiate for themselves. I’m a highly skilled robotics engineer and I have to constantly tell recruiters to stop emailing me. I’ve negotiated a position that is exactly what I want to be doing. A dream career. But I’m in a tiny organization, it is basically just me and one investor. The project would be over if I left, so I have a lot of negotiating power. But the same is not true for Amazon warehouse workers or UPS truck drivers or coal miners. I’m sure there are workers who perform better than others but this doesn’t really lead to a huge change in ROI for the company, so even the best UPS truck driver has very little negotiating power. That’s where unions matter.
- redeeman 4y ago
  you are not responding to my argument. if a single UPS worker has demands, sure, they will just be fired, but why cannot every single UPS worker have their own set of demands? why must they scheme and plot together? if the demands of the union is reasonably similar to what the individual feels anyway, why cant they just put up those constraints directly in the job negotiations? if UPS can then find enough guys that truly do not care about no aircondition, or feels that the compensation is fair for services rendered(including conditions thereof), is that not fine? do delivery drivers that demands aircondition have a divine right to get their way?
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    I did in fact directly respond to your argument. Whether you like my response is another thing. > why must they scheme and plot together? Because it is effective. > do delivery drivers that demands aircondition have a divine right to get their way? Nope. But they absolutely do have the capability to organize. And if they decide that organizing is in their interest, they will do so. Although I do believe unions are generally good, this is not about right or wrong. This is about interests. It is in the interest of the business to pay the workers as little as possible, and it is in the interest of the workers to find ways to raise their pay and other benefits. They can choose to negotiate as individuals or they can choose to form a union. You seem to be grasping for reasons why they don’t need a union, but I don’t find your position tenable. If there were truly no difference between having a union or not having one, then unions would never exist. The truth is there is a long history of unions and we wouldn’t have the 40 hour work week, paid maternity leave, and other benefits if it weren’t for the hard work of union organizing in this country.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

You seem to be missing the whole point of a union - “collective bargaining”. If one worker at UPS says “give me air conditioning in my truck or I refuse to work”, management will just fire them. If every worker at UPS says the same thing, the company is put in a serious position and must negotiate. This has nothing to do with how smart the workers are. A single worker does not have the power that a union has. A single worker cannot make demands of the company with any real negotiating power, unless it is a very small company with specialized needs. For what it’s worth I’m one of those people that is able to negotiate for themselves. I’m a highly skilled robotics engineer and I have to constantly tell recruiters to stop emailing me. I’ve negotiated a position that is exactly what I want to be doing. A dream career. But I’m in a tiny organization, it is basically just me and one investor. The project would be over if I left, so I have a lot of negotiating power. But the same is not true for Amazon warehouse workers or UPS truck drivers or coal miners. I’m sure there are workers who perform better than others but this doesn’t really lead to a huge change in ROI for the company, so even the best UPS truck driver has very little negotiating power. That’s where unions matter.

redeeman 4y ago
you are not responding to my argument. if a single UPS worker has demands, sure, they will just be fired, but why cannot every single UPS worker have their own set of demands? why must they scheme and plot together? if the demands of the union is reasonably similar to what the individual feels anyway, why cant they just put up those constraints directly in the job negotiations? if UPS can then find enough guys that truly do not care about no aircondition, or feels that the compensation is fair for services rendered(including conditions thereof), is that not fine? do delivery drivers that demands aircondition have a divine right to get their way?
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I did in fact directly respond to your argument. Whether you like my response is another thing. > why must they scheme and plot together? Because it is effective. > do delivery drivers that demands aircondition have a divine right to get their way? Nope. But they absolutely do have the capability to organize. And if they decide that organizing is in their interest, they will do so. Although I do believe unions are generally good, this is not about right or wrong. This is about interests. It is in the interest of the business to pay the workers as little as possible, and it is in the interest of the workers to find ways to raise their pay and other benefits. They can choose to negotiate as individuals or they can choose to form a union. You seem to be grasping for reasons why they don’t need a union, but I don’t find your position tenable. If there were truly no difference between having a union or not having one, then unions would never exist. The truth is there is a long history of unions and we wouldn’t have the 40 hour work week, paid maternity leave, and other benefits if it weren’t for the hard work of union organizing in this country.