4 ms·

> Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg, a committed anti-communist, who served as Norway’s prime minister for eight years before moving to h

> Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg, a committed anti-communist, who served as Norway’s prime minister for eight years before moving to his high NATO post, with American backing, in 2014. He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since. “He is the glove that fits the American hand,” the source said. A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Jens Stoltenberg was the leader of the labour party and while he was not a communist, describing him as a committed anti-communist is just plainly wrong. It was not part of his platform at all and one the parties in his coalition was a socialist, Marxist party. Also he was not a hardliner on Russia. In fact during his time as a prime minister Norway and Russia peacefully and diplomatically solved the territorial dispute they had in the Barents Sea. Neither have the Americans always completely trusted him since the Vietnam war. He was vocally anti-NATO in his youth and the Bush administration gave him a cold shoulder for the rest of it's years after he was elected prime minister in 2005. He claimed that during the congratulation call from the American president he said that he wanted all Norwegian troops out of Iraq and the the mission. The Americans were adamant he did not. I know it's just one paragraph, but when thing gets misconstructed by the source in such a way it kinda losses credibility with me. Also the quote about Norwegians "Hating Russians" while I've never felt anything like that in my dealing with the armed forces (Norway don't have any historical grievances with Russia), really makes me question it.

redbar0n 4y ago
> "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg ... He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War." During the Vietnam War (1955-1975) Stoltenberg (born 1959) was -4 to 16 years old.. Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980. Links/sources follow: «Thorvald Stoltenberg and Reiulf Steen visited Hanoi in 1970.» https://vietnamkrigen-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2010/02/22/stoltenberg-steen-propagandabesøk/ https://vietnamkrigen-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2010/02/2... «In a new biography of Thorvald Stoltenberg, it is described how Norway brokered peace between the parties in the Vietnam War at the end of the 1960s.» https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/nyheter/innenriks/i/Pk947/norge-meglet-under-vietnamkrigen https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/nyheter/innenriks/i/Pk947/n... «Defense Minister Thorvald Stoltenberg was praised for his negotiating skills in a so far classified CIA report from 1980.« https://www-nettavisen-no.translate.goog/nyheter/cia-vurderte-norske-politikere-i-hemmelig-rapport/s/12-95-5240140 https://www-nettavisen-no.translate.goog/nyheter/cia-vurdert...
redbar0n 4y ago
«Stoltenberg and Støre discussed the possibilities for the job of secretary general in NATO already in 2010, Klassekampen writes. It was the year before Norway took part in extensive bombing of Libya« https://e24-no.translate.goog/karriere-og-ledelse/i/xPlw8V/hevder-stoltenberg-diskuterte-nato-jobb-allerede-i-2011 https://e24-no.translate.goog/karriere-og-ledelse/i/xPlw8V/h... «lieutenant colonel Tormod Heier said: - In its first years, the Stoltenberg government had a bad reputation in the USA, partly because we did not contribute in southern Afghanistan. After SV was weakened in the 2009 election, Libya became an opportunity to repair relations with the United States. This has contributed to the fact that Norway has now moved up a division in NATO . And as a thank you for his efforts, Jens Stoltenberg was appointed Secretary General of NATO.« https://www-dagsavisen-no.translate.goog/kultur/2014/10/15/still-stoltenberg-for-en-krigsforbryterdomstol/ https://www-dagsavisen-no.translate.goog/kultur/2014/10/15/s...
ianburrell 4y ago
Also, Supreme Allied Commander Europe is General Cavoli. Stoltenberg is Secretary General of NATO. The former is what most people would call the "supreme commander" since has military operational command. He is American so immediately suspect. In between there is Chair of the NATO Military Committee, who is Dutch admiral.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  Yep. Gell Mann Amnesia in full effect here. Everything you two have said are basic geopolitical knowledge blunders and it's clear Hersh has lost his intellectual bearing the last decade as he's now 85... Hersh: "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg" Reality: Jens Stoltenberg is the secretary general of NATO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Allied_Commander_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Allied_Commander_Europ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Stoltenberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Stoltenberg
  - kubectl_h 4y ago
    This is a mistaken title attribution, but even with a correction do you think it changes much? Stoltenberg is the civilian leader of NATO and having his support is crucial. Hersh may have been mistaken in the title, but not the person nor their importance.
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      It actually means a lot. Hersh is basing the entire story off one anonymous source. For such a serious implication, he’s unable to even do due diligence on basic verifiable facts. That buries the lede on how much verification he competently did for his source.
      - kubectl_h 4y ago
        It doesn't really. It's the kind of thing that could slip by fact checkers at plenty of publications and result in a fairly innocuous correction.
bjornsing 4y ago
I had a similar reaction after reading the brief description of the Swedish navy’s dealings with Russian submarines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34715500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34715500 It’s a bit strange to report on something so controversial and not make sure all verifiable claims are true…
avgcorrection 4y ago
> A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Jens Stoltenberg was the leader of the labour party and while he was not a communist, describing him as a committed anti-communist is just plainly wrong. Would “milquetoast moderate” be more fitting? That’s at least closer to how the Labour Party operates, even though their rhetoric is more left-leaning than the other major party (H). > He claimed that during the congratulation call from the American president he said that he wanted all Norwegian troops out of Iraq and the the mission. The Americans were adamant he did not. He said that he said that? How brave of him.
mannerheim 4y ago
> A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Well, that's certainly a kinder description than I would give. 'Blatant fucking bullshit' seems closer to the mark.
mzs 4y ago
Thanks, Vietnam was over in '75, Stoltenberg was 16 then. It's just all so absurd.
- redbar0n 4y ago
  Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980. See my other comment for sources.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >Thanks, Vietnam was over in '75, Stoltenberg was 16 then. It's just all so absurd. Not necessarily. I had thought Hersh's "since the Vietnam War" line to be poorly phrased, or an editing mistake, but /u/michaelmacmanus makes an interesting point <https://np.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/10wx42b/seymour_hersh_how_america_took_out_the_nord/j7rkqsl/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/10wx42b/seymour_h...>. Maybe we should take the line literally!
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    Ah, yes, the CIA were so threatened by a couple of kids throwing rocks at the American embassy, they enlisted a child to uncover the identities of the perpetrators, who presumably were punished with hard labour in the Norwegian gulags for their heinous crime of vandalism.

redbar0n 4y ago

> "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg ... He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War." During the Vietnam War (1955-1975) Stoltenberg (born 1959) was -4 to 16 years old.. Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980. Links/sources follow: «Thorvald Stoltenberg and Reiulf Steen visited Hanoi in 1970.» https://vietnamkrigen-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2010/02/22/stoltenberg-steen-propagandabesøk/ https://vietnamkrigen-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2010/02/2... «In a new biography of Thorvald Stoltenberg, it is described how Norway brokered peace between the parties in the Vietnam War at the end of the 1960s.» https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/nyheter/innenriks/i/Pk947/norge-meglet-under-vietnamkrigen https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/nyheter/innenriks/i/Pk947/n... «Defense Minister Thorvald Stoltenberg was praised for his negotiating skills in a so far classified CIA report from 1980.« https://www-nettavisen-no.translate.goog/nyheter/cia-vurderte-norske-politikere-i-hemmelig-rapport/s/12-95-5240140 https://www-nettavisen-no.translate.goog/nyheter/cia-vurdert...

redbar0n 4y ago

«Stoltenberg and Støre discussed the possibilities for the job of secretary general in NATO already in 2010, Klassekampen writes. It was the year before Norway took part in extensive bombing of Libya« https://e24-no.translate.goog/karriere-og-ledelse/i/xPlw8V/hevder-stoltenberg-diskuterte-nato-jobb-allerede-i-2011 https://e24-no.translate.goog/karriere-og-ledelse/i/xPlw8V/h... «lieutenant colonel Tormod Heier said: - In its first years, the Stoltenberg government had a bad reputation in the USA, partly because we did not contribute in southern Afghanistan. After SV was weakened in the 2009 election, Libya became an opportunity to repair relations with the United States. This has contributed to the fact that Norway has now moved up a division in NATO . And as a thank you for his efforts, Jens Stoltenberg was appointed Secretary General of NATO.« https://www-dagsavisen-no.translate.goog/kultur/2014/10/15/still-stoltenberg-for-en-krigsforbryterdomstol/ https://www-dagsavisen-no.translate.goog/kultur/2014/10/15/s...

ianburrell 4y ago

Also, Supreme Allied Commander Europe is General Cavoli. Stoltenberg is Secretary General of NATO. The former is what most people would call the "supreme commander" since has military operational command. He is American so immediately suspect. In between there is Chair of the NATO Military Committee, who is Dutch admiral.

reducesuffering 4y ago
Yep. Gell Mann Amnesia in full effect here. Everything you two have said are basic geopolitical knowledge blunders and it's clear Hersh has lost his intellectual bearing the last decade as he's now 85... Hersh: "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg" Reality: Jens Stoltenberg is the secretary general of NATO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Allied_Commander_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Allied_Commander_Europ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Stoltenberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Stoltenberg
- kubectl_h 4y ago
  This is a mistaken title attribution, but even with a correction do you think it changes much? Stoltenberg is the civilian leader of NATO and having his support is crucial. Hersh may have been mistaken in the title, but not the person nor their importance.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    It actually means a lot. Hersh is basing the entire story off one anonymous source. For such a serious implication, he’s unable to even do due diligence on basic verifiable facts. That buries the lede on how much verification he competently did for his source.
    - kubectl_h 4y ago
      It doesn't really. It's the kind of thing that could slip by fact checkers at plenty of publications and result in a fairly innocuous correction.

bjornsing 4y ago

I had a similar reaction after reading the brief description of the Swedish navy’s dealings with Russian submarines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34715500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34715500 It’s a bit strange to report on something so controversial and not make sure all verifiable claims are true…

avgcorrection 4y ago

> A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Jens Stoltenberg was the leader of the labour party and while he was not a communist, describing him as a committed anti-communist is just plainly wrong. Would “milquetoast moderate” be more fitting? That’s at least closer to how the Labour Party operates, even though their rhetoric is more left-leaning than the other major party (H). > He claimed that during the congratulation call from the American president he said that he wanted all Norwegian troops out of Iraq and the the mission. The Americans were adamant he did not. He said that he said that? How brave of him.

mannerheim 4y ago

> A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Well, that's certainly a kinder description than I would give. 'Blatant fucking bullshit' seems closer to the mark.

mzs 4y ago

Thanks, Vietnam was over in '75, Stoltenberg was 16 then. It's just all so absurd.

redbar0n 4y ago
Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980. See my other comment for sources.
TMWNN 4y ago
>Thanks, Vietnam was over in '75, Stoltenberg was 16 then. It's just all so absurd. Not necessarily. I had thought Hersh's "since the Vietnam War" line to be poorly phrased, or an editing mistake, but /u/michaelmacmanus makes an interesting point <https://np.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/10wx42b/seymour_hersh_how_america_took_out_the_nord/j7rkqsl/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/10wx42b/seymour_h...>. Maybe we should take the line literally!
- mannerheim 4y ago
  Ah, yes, the CIA were so threatened by a couple of kids throwing rocks at the American embassy, they enlisted a child to uncover the identities of the perpetrators, who presumably were punished with hard labour in the Norwegian gulags for their heinous crime of vandalism.