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> I believe it is an overtly hostile action against EU citizens and, particularly, Germans, who will suffer the most economically. In the scenario where Americ

> I believe it is an overtly hostile action against EU citizens and, particularly, Germans, who will suffer the most economically. In the scenario where America did it, I think there is a strong argument to be made that it was in the long-term interests of EU citizens, despite causing them some short-term discomfort. They never should have started this pipeline project in the first place, buying energy from Russia made the EU weak. Breaking that relationship permanently will make the EU stronger.

Eduard 4y ago
> ... causing EU citizens short-term discomfort You have no idea what's going on. Also, are you arguing that having less choice in market supply is good better for EU?
pillefitz 4y ago
We were quite happy with cheap energy and it was great to have a choice between Russian gas and American LNG, until that option disappeared.
- letrowekwel 4y ago
  That option disappeared when Russia invaded Ukraine, not when the pipeline was blown up (at least if you rate human life over economics). Nobody should buy anything from a regime like Putin's Russia.
  - RobotToaster 4y ago
    It's fine to buy gas from the USA, the butchers of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Yugoslavia though?
    - Animatronio 4y ago
      Yes, it's even sweeter because EU industry is quickly becoming unable to compete successfully on global markets and the Russians are getting poorer. Two birds with one stone!
    - mint2 4y ago
      It’s telling that this post includes stopping a genocide as a bad thing, I.e. the UN stopping the Bosnian genocide in the fracturing Yugoslavia as a bad thing. Coincidentally, the Russian sphere is one of the groups mad about the UN involvement in Bosnia and Serbia
      - mempko 4y ago
        I think the point is that there is no ethical supplier of natural gas.
        peterfirefly 4y ago
        Norway? And -- as soon as the Tyra Field reopens -- Denmark?
        mempko 4y ago
        I mean, look at what the pro-German Norwegian government did during Nazi occupation? You can't escape this stuff. It's wild. Also, petro states like Norway caused global warming and ultimately history will find them culpable for mass death.
      - lmm 4y ago
        No-one opposes stopping the genocide. The argument is generally that bombing Belgrade was unnecessary (and if anything, a distraction from the UN's failure to prevent the genocide).
        mint2 4y ago
        The comment I replied to called USA the butcher of Yugoslavia. Personally I’d call the groups committing literal genocide the butchers, not the groups taking action to stop it. To each their own opinion.
        lmm 4y ago
        When that "action to stop it" is bombing a civilian capital quite distant from the warring groups, you can understand people might not be enthusiastic about that.
nostromo123 4y ago
America "doing things in the long-term interests of EU citizens, despite causing them some short-term discomfort" is exactly why the US is seen as the baddy in a lot of countries. We are not your children to be nannied and taken decisions on behalf of!
- tiahura 4y ago
  We are not your children to be nannied and taken decisions on behalf of! Until you can defend yourselves, you are.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Sick of hearing this BS. Who can invade EU, Russia after their showing in Ukraine? China from half the world away? EU militaries have multiple times the budget of the RU army. We don't need 11 carriers to defend ourselves.
    - dralley 4y ago
      Ukraine, in January 2022, had more tanks than Germany, France, and the UK combined. They had more air defense than Germany, France, and the UK combined, though the systems were not quite as capable individually. They had nearly as many active duty military as Germany, France, and the UK combined, and a huge number of reservists with experience fighting in the War in Donbass against Russian military and paramilitary forces with tanks and artillery, as opposed to jihadists with no real heavy weapons of any kind. Their airforce was mostly comparable in size to any one of the above, though again not as capable qualitatively. And they had a hell of a lot more artillery and artillery shells than Germany, France, and the UK combined. By a massive margin, although again not quite as capable individually. Nearly all of the NATO-standard artillery ammunition that has been provided to Ukraine has come from US stockpiles, because at the rate Ukraine consumes artillery ammo Germany, France, and the UK would be collectively tapped out in about 10 days. Not to mention HIMARS ammunition. The Russians were also rather handicapped by the reckless, arrogant stupidity of their plan and extreme secrecy resulting in soldiers selling their fuel rations for alcohol, because until a day or two beforehand they thought was all a bunch of western lies because that's what the government was saying publicly. With the result that a bunch of vehicles ran out of fuel halfway to Kyiv. Had the invasion been done according to doctrine rather than as what they expected to be an immediate victory as the Ukrainians laid down their arms, awed by their superior military power, the story may still have turned out very different. Anyway, Ukraine had, by a very significant margin, the largest military in Europe excluding Russia, and certainly the most experienced in fighting "real" wars. Take this into consideration when boasting about how easily the rest of Europe would be able to handle a Russian invasion.

Eduard 4y ago

> ... causing EU citizens short-term discomfort You have no idea what's going on. Also, are you arguing that having less choice in market supply is good better for EU?

pillefitz 4y ago

We were quite happy with cheap energy and it was great to have a choice between Russian gas and American LNG, until that option disappeared.

letrowekwel 4y ago
That option disappeared when Russia invaded Ukraine, not when the pipeline was blown up (at least if you rate human life over economics). Nobody should buy anything from a regime like Putin's Russia.
- RobotToaster 4y ago
  It's fine to buy gas from the USA, the butchers of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Yugoslavia though?
  - Animatronio 4y ago
    Yes, it's even sweeter because EU industry is quickly becoming unable to compete successfully on global markets and the Russians are getting poorer. Two birds with one stone!
  - mint2 4y ago
    It’s telling that this post includes stopping a genocide as a bad thing, I.e. the UN stopping the Bosnian genocide in the fracturing Yugoslavia as a bad thing. Coincidentally, the Russian sphere is one of the groups mad about the UN involvement in Bosnia and Serbia
    - mempko 4y ago
      I think the point is that there is no ethical supplier of natural gas.
      - peterfirefly 4y ago
        Norway? And -- as soon as the Tyra Field reopens -- Denmark?
        mempko 4y ago
        I mean, look at what the pro-German Norwegian government did during Nazi occupation? You can't escape this stuff. It's wild. Also, petro states like Norway caused global warming and ultimately history will find them culpable for mass death.
    - lmm 4y ago
      No-one opposes stopping the genocide. The argument is generally that bombing Belgrade was unnecessary (and if anything, a distraction from the UN's failure to prevent the genocide).
      - mint2 4y ago
        The comment I replied to called USA the butcher of Yugoslavia. Personally I’d call the groups committing literal genocide the butchers, not the groups taking action to stop it. To each their own opinion.
        lmm 4y ago
        When that "action to stop it" is bombing a civilian capital quite distant from the warring groups, you can understand people might not be enthusiastic about that.

nostromo123 4y ago

America "doing things in the long-term interests of EU citizens, despite causing them some short-term discomfort" is exactly why the US is seen as the baddy in a lot of countries. We are not your children to be nannied and taken decisions on behalf of!

tiahura 4y ago
We are not your children to be nannied and taken decisions on behalf of! Until you can defend yourselves, you are.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Sick of hearing this BS. Who can invade EU, Russia after their showing in Ukraine? China from half the world away? EU militaries have multiple times the budget of the RU army. We don't need 11 carriers to defend ourselves.
  - dralley 4y ago
    Ukraine, in January 2022, had more tanks than Germany, France, and the UK combined. They had more air defense than Germany, France, and the UK combined, though the systems were not quite as capable individually. They had nearly as many active duty military as Germany, France, and the UK combined, and a huge number of reservists with experience fighting in the War in Donbass against Russian military and paramilitary forces with tanks and artillery, as opposed to jihadists with no real heavy weapons of any kind. Their airforce was mostly comparable in size to any one of the above, though again not as capable qualitatively. And they had a hell of a lot more artillery and artillery shells than Germany, France, and the UK combined. By a massive margin, although again not quite as capable individually. Nearly all of the NATO-standard artillery ammunition that has been provided to Ukraine has come from US stockpiles, because at the rate Ukraine consumes artillery ammo Germany, France, and the UK would be collectively tapped out in about 10 days. Not to mention HIMARS ammunition. The Russians were also rather handicapped by the reckless, arrogant stupidity of their plan and extreme secrecy resulting in soldiers selling their fuel rations for alcohol, because until a day or two beforehand they thought was all a bunch of western lies because that's what the government was saying publicly. With the result that a bunch of vehicles ran out of fuel halfway to Kyiv. Had the invasion been done according to doctrine rather than as what they expected to be an immediate victory as the Ukrainians laid down their arms, awed by their superior military power, the story may still have turned out very different. Anyway, Ukraine had, by a very significant margin, the largest military in Europe excluding Russia, and certainly the most experienced in fighting "real" wars. Take this into consideration when boasting about how easily the rest of Europe would be able to handle a Russian invasion.