4 ms·

> less cultural cohesion due to hyper diversity in memes resulting in fewer shared experiences People being different is bad?

hosh 4y ago
It's not. But people also need some kind of shared meaning and a sense of belonging as well.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  And how did memes make that harder
  - hosh 4y ago
    Memes don't necessarily make it harder. However, memes can be used to simultaneously include and exclude -- as references to something the "tribe" gets, but others outside the tribe do not. Inside jokes are an example of such references. When you make hyperspecialized memes, and you have many of them, you're basically fragmenting a larger pool of shared meaning into many smaller ones. Diversity, and of itself, is not inherently a virtue -- although lots of people would like it to be. Rather, diversity in the ecological sense, leads to more resiliency. There's still have to be some kind of unifying aspect (such as, unifying on humanity as a whole, or better yet, the whole earth as a whole) within which there is diversity. There's a sense of belonging to something greater than you while simultaneously participating and relating from the uniqueness of an individual.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
Teenagers having the idea reinforced through social media that being different is bad, is bad. Left to their own devices, that is the default social order that children create.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  But come on. Diversity is not actually bad. People being diverse even if they think it’s bad is not bad. And memes are not a meaningful driver of diversity.
  - mech987 4y ago
    I don't think any of the people you are having a discussion with are making the claims you think they are making.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      I’m responding to > less cultural cohesion due to hyper diversity in memes resulting in fewer shared experiences My take is it’s a bunch of people who are out of touch with the youth assuming that the youth feel out of touch with each other.
  - slowmovintarget 4y ago
    Intent does not an outcome make. "Social media" accelerates unmoderated interaction with other irresponsible people, which, generally speaking, is not healthy for teenagers.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      > unmoderated interaction with other irresponsible people Other irresponsible people means their peers right? Like teens talking to teens without adult supervision?
- caeril 4y ago
  What? Merely existing on the playground, on the field, or in the cafeteria in the 80s and 90s reinforced the idea that being different was bad. How is this unique to post-2012? At least Instagram doesn't hold you up against a chain-link fence while TikTok punches you in the gut for being different.
retrac 4y ago
People do need common culture. I have a friend in his mid-20s and he is always "Do you know [YouTube personality]?" or showing me memes that require extensive explanations. And we're actually very similar people in many ways. Some of this is just me not being hip with the next generation's culture. But he also has not seen almost any of what I would call the American film canon. So we can't even discuss cheesy 80s action films. Eventually we figured out he had seen Stargate. He was surprised I had seen it. He can't tell what's mainstream and what's highly esoteric. I do think that's a problem. I know no one will have any idea what I'm talking about if I bring up my favourite synthwave artists in conversation. It occurs to me that the form of media often informed my awareness about that. Was it on TV? Popular book at the library? Or did I find it in the back of some weird 'zine? It's all the same on YouTube. Though there is the view count. It's often watched alone, so no social feedback. When it comes to movie nights, for example, finding something that's acceptable to most, not just hyper-tailored to yourself and full of in-references, is an important social skill.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Ok but… this is so obviously a generational thing. You know who does know the YouTuber? His peers. He does not watch cheesy 80s films and you don’t watch 40s theater. People absolutely don’t need mainstream media. Mainstream media hits the lowest common denominator and tends to suck. I think most YouTubers and uncomfortably fake to watch, but I would still prefer people watch that over mainstream tv…
  - retrac 4y ago
    I'm only some ten years older. The films I spoke of were released before I was born. Yet most of my generation is familiar with some of them. Star Wars, then. Or Schindler's List. Maybe I'm Spielberg biased. The Exorcist. My point is that there was such a thing -- a common film canon -- that people who were interested in film, could be expected to be somewhat familiar with. No longer true? Yes. Lowest common denominator. Some common point of reference gives a common vocabulary. Even if it sucks.
    - 4y ago
paperwasp42 4y ago
OP hit on a really interesting point, and if he's referring to the same thing I've seen, the issue isn't "difference." I think the issue is the degree of difference. The place I volunteer at has quite a few teen volunteers, and I've noticed I can immediately spot the chronically-online teens (and there's a lot of them), because it's like they're from a different planet. They use language I don't understand, their humor revolves around memes I don't understand, they constantly reference people/events from their favored internet niche, and then completely lose interest in talking with people who don't understand their niche. I think this ends up decreasing the amount of difference and diversity teens are exposed to, because when there are a million [insert niche here] fans online who "totally get you", there is far less incentive to make friends in the real world. And if you do make real-world friends, they likely are going to be part of that same niche, and have the exact same language/interests/etc that has been crafted by the online community. (It's honestly a bit eerie how good these niches are at creating cookie-cutter teens. I've had bizarrely similar conversations with kids who have never met each other, but are into the same niche. And it's not just their interests that are similar, it's their attitudes/outlooks/political views/etc.) I find this really concerning, because it's important for teens to be exposed to a wide variety of people/experiences and be encouraged to respect them all. And that's hard to do when you're in a bubble of people who are identical to you, and have very little incentive to branch outside of that bubble. I think back to my teen friend group, and it was a hodge-podge of computer geeks, theatre kids, journalism nerds, etc. I got so much benefit from having such a diverse friend group, and it's concerning to see those types of friend groups becoming rarer.
- d_sem 4y ago
  I appreciate this comment and generally agree. I have observed that teens themselves seem not to understand each other to a greater degree: perhaps the effect is not limited teenagers. Increased inability to relate in ways that allow ideas to be shared, and importantly -- challenged in real settings.

hosh 4y ago

It's not. But people also need some kind of shared meaning and a sense of belonging as well.

oneoff786 4y ago
And how did memes make that harder
- hosh 4y ago
  Memes don't necessarily make it harder. However, memes can be used to simultaneously include and exclude -- as references to something the "tribe" gets, but others outside the tribe do not. Inside jokes are an example of such references. When you make hyperspecialized memes, and you have many of them, you're basically fragmenting a larger pool of shared meaning into many smaller ones. Diversity, and of itself, is not inherently a virtue -- although lots of people would like it to be. Rather, diversity in the ecological sense, leads to more resiliency. There's still have to be some kind of unifying aspect (such as, unifying on humanity as a whole, or better yet, the whole earth as a whole) within which there is diversity. There's a sense of belonging to something greater than you while simultaneously participating and relating from the uniqueness of an individual.

slowmovintarget 4y ago

Teenagers having the idea reinforced through social media that being different is bad, is bad. Left to their own devices, that is the default social order that children create.

oneoff786 4y ago
But come on. Diversity is not actually bad. People being diverse even if they think it’s bad is not bad. And memes are not a meaningful driver of diversity.
- mech987 4y ago
  I don't think any of the people you are having a discussion with are making the claims you think they are making.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    I’m responding to > less cultural cohesion due to hyper diversity in memes resulting in fewer shared experiences My take is it’s a bunch of people who are out of touch with the youth assuming that the youth feel out of touch with each other.
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  Intent does not an outcome make. "Social media" accelerates unmoderated interaction with other irresponsible people, which, generally speaking, is not healthy for teenagers.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    > unmoderated interaction with other irresponsible people Other irresponsible people means their peers right? Like teens talking to teens without adult supervision?
caeril 4y ago
What? Merely existing on the playground, on the field, or in the cafeteria in the 80s and 90s reinforced the idea that being different was bad. How is this unique to post-2012? At least Instagram doesn't hold you up against a chain-link fence while TikTok punches you in the gut for being different.

retrac 4y ago

People do need common culture. I have a friend in his mid-20s and he is always "Do you know [YouTube personality]?" or showing me memes that require extensive explanations. And we're actually very similar people in many ways. Some of this is just me not being hip with the next generation's culture. But he also has not seen almost any of what I would call the American film canon. So we can't even discuss cheesy 80s action films. Eventually we figured out he had seen Stargate. He was surprised I had seen it. He can't tell what's mainstream and what's highly esoteric. I do think that's a problem. I know no one will have any idea what I'm talking about if I bring up my favourite synthwave artists in conversation. It occurs to me that the form of media often informed my awareness about that. Was it on TV? Popular book at the library? Or did I find it in the back of some weird 'zine? It's all the same on YouTube. Though there is the view count. It's often watched alone, so no social feedback. When it comes to movie nights, for example, finding something that's acceptable to most, not just hyper-tailored to yourself and full of in-references, is an important social skill.

oneoff786 4y ago
Ok but… this is so obviously a generational thing. You know who does know the YouTuber? His peers. He does not watch cheesy 80s films and you don’t watch 40s theater. People absolutely don’t need mainstream media. Mainstream media hits the lowest common denominator and tends to suck. I think most YouTubers and uncomfortably fake to watch, but I would still prefer people watch that over mainstream tv…
- retrac 4y ago
  I'm only some ten years older. The films I spoke of were released before I was born. Yet most of my generation is familiar with some of them. Star Wars, then. Or Schindler's List. Maybe I'm Spielberg biased. The Exorcist. My point is that there was such a thing -- a common film canon -- that people who were interested in film, could be expected to be somewhat familiar with. No longer true? Yes. Lowest common denominator. Some common point of reference gives a common vocabulary. Even if it sucks.
  - 4y ago

paperwasp42 4y ago

OP hit on a really interesting point, and if he's referring to the same thing I've seen, the issue isn't "difference." I think the issue is the degree of difference. The place I volunteer at has quite a few teen volunteers, and I've noticed I can immediately spot the chronically-online teens (and there's a lot of them), because it's like they're from a different planet. They use language I don't understand, their humor revolves around memes I don't understand, they constantly reference people/events from their favored internet niche, and then completely lose interest in talking with people who don't understand their niche. I think this ends up decreasing the amount of difference and diversity teens are exposed to, because when there are a million [insert niche here] fans online who "totally get you", there is far less incentive to make friends in the real world. And if you do make real-world friends, they likely are going to be part of that same niche, and have the exact same language/interests/etc that has been crafted by the online community. (It's honestly a bit eerie how good these niches are at creating cookie-cutter teens. I've had bizarrely similar conversations with kids who have never met each other, but are into the same niche. And it's not just their interests that are similar, it's their attitudes/outlooks/political views/etc.) I find this really concerning, because it's important for teens to be exposed to a wide variety of people/experiences and be encouraged to respect them all. And that's hard to do when you're in a bubble of people who are identical to you, and have very little incentive to branch outside of that bubble. I think back to my teen friend group, and it was a hodge-podge of computer geeks, theatre kids, journalism nerds, etc. I got so much benefit from having such a diverse friend group, and it's concerning to see those types of friend groups becoming rarer.

d_sem 4y ago
I appreciate this comment and generally agree. I have observed that teens themselves seem not to understand each other to a greater degree: perhaps the effect is not limited teenagers. Increased inability to relate in ways that allow ideas to be shared, and importantly -- challenged in real settings.