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Kenny G is the best-selling instrumental artist of all time, but a serious saxophone player would do well not to sound like him. By that metric.

sillysaurusx 4y ago
I figured your criticism was just a “look at me, I hate pg” with no substance, but it’s always disappointing to see it confirmed. Having substance would require having reasons, which always seem to be in short supply whenever people argue against pg’s style. I’m not personally a fan of smooth jazz, but at least Kenny G is well-known. That’s a pretty good metric to aim for when writing, isn’t it?
- Veen 4y ago
  Idlewords is a better model of good writing than Paul Graham. Maciej might be bloody annoying at times, but I find his writing far more interesting than Graham's, both in its topics and its style.
- klodolph 4y ago
  Kenny G and smooth jazz get a lot of hate, and most of it is from people who are hating on Kenny G as a kind of “etiquette” to mark that they’re in the right social group—same kind of thing you do by talking about your Prius or whatever other annoying thing people do to put themselves in the right group. Smooth jazz and related genres like adult contemporary are easy targets here (maybe we can pick on Phil Collins next). People love to talk about how much they hate these genres. And then there’s all the people who say they listen to “everything but country and rap”, which is at this point a cliché. It’s all just to show that you’re in the right social group, and less about whether you (personally) took a chance and listened to smooth jazz, then decided what your personal feelings are about it. We’re social creatures and it takes a ton of effort to give music, culture, or people a chance without trying to evaluate our choices through the lens of what is acceptable for our social in-group or the social in-group we aspire to. Most people who “listen to everything” are just saying that because it’s the kind of sentiment that their social in-group values, and if you dig into the actual listening habits “listens to everything” you won’t find anything surprising or unusual.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    You all know that by having an extended discussion of how underrated Kenny G is, you're proving some kind of point about the reverence people here have for Paul Graham's writing, right? I don't know precisely what point it is, but it's unlikely to be one that Paul Graham himself would be thrilled about. Graham certainly does not see himself as the Kenny G of technical and business essayists.
    - klodolph 4y ago
      > I don't know precisely what point it is Could you give us a hint? I honestly have no idea what you’re getting at. I’d also like to clarify that this is not a discussion about whether Kenny G is underrated, but whether people hate Kenny G simply because it’s fashionable to do so. The whole problem I have here is that it was irrelevant in the first place whether Kenny G is good or not, because “whether Kenny G is actually good” is not a question some people are willing to investigate.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        It seems like it's not exactly a compliment to Paul Graham to suggest that maybe he is just like Kenny G, and the problem is that people don't appreciate Kenny G enough. I'm sure some people hate Kenny G because it's fashionable, but a lot of people hate Kenny G because they hate him, and either way: people fucking hate him. I'm only in this leg of the thread because I think it's super funny that somebody compared Graham to Kenny G and it had the predictable result of a bloom of rhetorical hyphae about how actually Kenny G is probably good. Late edit I am obligated, against my own rhetorical interests, to acknowledge that Kenny G is beloved by many in the country of Israel for introducing to them to concept of unlimited free soda refills, which he did through his unsuccessful attempt to open a fried chicken franchise there.
        klodolph 4y ago
        > It seems like it's not exactly a compliment to Paul Graham to suggest that maybe he is just like Kenny G […] Pardon the allegory, but that’s a shadow on the cave wall. > …predictable result of a bloom of rhetorical hyphae about how actually Kenny G is probably good… That isn’t present in the conversation; I think you may have misread one of the comments. If you’re going to say that it’s good or bad to imitate Paul Graham’s style, then by all means, do so, but it would serve you well to provide some kind of reasoning or rationale for the advice. (To be clear, general “you” here, not you, specifically.) You can equally advise saxophonists to try sounding like Kenny G or avoid sounding like Kenny G, again, without any reasoning or rationale for it, but I think we can do better. There’s something kind of banal about this taste-making in the first place. It’s much easier to find reasons to say that something is bad. It gives you a much more defensible position, which is why people find it easy to hate Kenny G. Saying you like something would expose you too much to criticism. For whatever reason, some people decided that it’s cool to hate Kenny G, and nowadays you see people dropping Kenny G’s name into the conversation as an example of something you want to hate, by people who have no particular reason to hate Kenny G. Whether Kenny G is actually good or bad was never relevant, because the only relevant fact is that it’s cool to think that Kenny G is bad.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Reasons are a dime a dozen. A good immediate gut feeling is priceless...
- tptacek 4y ago
  Just because he didn't humor your cross-examination with a 3 paragraph response doesn't mean that there's no substance behind what he's saying. If you want to learn things from people, a good starting place is not framing your questions with a bunch of sentences about how they're probably wrong.
- gammarator 4y ago
  I mean, if you're looking for a long-form takedown, Maciej already wrote "Dabblers and Blowhards" nearly two decades ago. https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
JohnFen 4y ago
Kenny G follows the rules of his chosen musical style. And knows when to break them. Writers should do the same.

sillysaurusx 4y ago

I figured your criticism was just a “look at me, I hate pg” with no substance, but it’s always disappointing to see it confirmed. Having substance would require having reasons, which always seem to be in short supply whenever people argue against pg’s style. I’m not personally a fan of smooth jazz, but at least Kenny G is well-known. That’s a pretty good metric to aim for when writing, isn’t it?

Veen 4y ago
Idlewords is a better model of good writing than Paul Graham. Maciej might be bloody annoying at times, but I find his writing far more interesting than Graham's, both in its topics and its style.
klodolph 4y ago
Kenny G and smooth jazz get a lot of hate, and most of it is from people who are hating on Kenny G as a kind of “etiquette” to mark that they’re in the right social group—same kind of thing you do by talking about your Prius or whatever other annoying thing people do to put themselves in the right group. Smooth jazz and related genres like adult contemporary are easy targets here (maybe we can pick on Phil Collins next). People love to talk about how much they hate these genres. And then there’s all the people who say they listen to “everything but country and rap”, which is at this point a cliché. It’s all just to show that you’re in the right social group, and less about whether you (personally) took a chance and listened to smooth jazz, then decided what your personal feelings are about it. We’re social creatures and it takes a ton of effort to give music, culture, or people a chance without trying to evaluate our choices through the lens of what is acceptable for our social in-group or the social in-group we aspire to. Most people who “listen to everything” are just saying that because it’s the kind of sentiment that their social in-group values, and if you dig into the actual listening habits “listens to everything” you won’t find anything surprising or unusual.
- tptacek 4y ago
  You all know that by having an extended discussion of how underrated Kenny G is, you're proving some kind of point about the reverence people here have for Paul Graham's writing, right? I don't know precisely what point it is, but it's unlikely to be one that Paul Graham himself would be thrilled about. Graham certainly does not see himself as the Kenny G of technical and business essayists.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    > I don't know precisely what point it is Could you give us a hint? I honestly have no idea what you’re getting at. I’d also like to clarify that this is not a discussion about whether Kenny G is underrated, but whether people hate Kenny G simply because it’s fashionable to do so. The whole problem I have here is that it was irrelevant in the first place whether Kenny G is good or not, because “whether Kenny G is actually good” is not a question some people are willing to investigate.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      It seems like it's not exactly a compliment to Paul Graham to suggest that maybe he is just like Kenny G, and the problem is that people don't appreciate Kenny G enough. I'm sure some people hate Kenny G because it's fashionable, but a lot of people hate Kenny G because they hate him, and either way: people fucking hate him. I'm only in this leg of the thread because I think it's super funny that somebody compared Graham to Kenny G and it had the predictable result of a bloom of rhetorical hyphae about how actually Kenny G is probably good. Late edit I am obligated, against my own rhetorical interests, to acknowledge that Kenny G is beloved by many in the country of Israel for introducing to them to concept of unlimited free soda refills, which he did through his unsuccessful attempt to open a fried chicken franchise there.
      - klodolph 4y ago
        > It seems like it's not exactly a compliment to Paul Graham to suggest that maybe he is just like Kenny G […] Pardon the allegory, but that’s a shadow on the cave wall. > …predictable result of a bloom of rhetorical hyphae about how actually Kenny G is probably good… That isn’t present in the conversation; I think you may have misread one of the comments. If you’re going to say that it’s good or bad to imitate Paul Graham’s style, then by all means, do so, but it would serve you well to provide some kind of reasoning or rationale for the advice. (To be clear, general “you” here, not you, specifically.) You can equally advise saxophonists to try sounding like Kenny G or avoid sounding like Kenny G, again, without any reasoning or rationale for it, but I think we can do better. There’s something kind of banal about this taste-making in the first place. It’s much easier to find reasons to say that something is bad. It gives you a much more defensible position, which is why people find it easy to hate Kenny G. Saying you like something would expose you too much to criticism. For whatever reason, some people decided that it’s cool to hate Kenny G, and nowadays you see people dropping Kenny G’s name into the conversation as an example of something you want to hate, by people who have no particular reason to hate Kenny G. Whether Kenny G is actually good or bad was never relevant, because the only relevant fact is that it’s cool to think that Kenny G is bad.
coldtea 4y ago
Reasons are a dime a dozen. A good immediate gut feeling is priceless...
tptacek 4y ago
Just because he didn't humor your cross-examination with a 3 paragraph response doesn't mean that there's no substance behind what he's saying. If you want to learn things from people, a good starting place is not framing your questions with a bunch of sentences about how they're probably wrong.
gammarator 4y ago
I mean, if you're looking for a long-form takedown, Maciej already wrote "Dabblers and Blowhards" nearly two decades ago. https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm

JohnFen 4y ago

Kenny G follows the rules of his chosen musical style. And knows when to break them. Writers should do the same.