4 ms·

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more yo

by enaaem 4y ago

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more you study history, the more you notice the same old tricks.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
But was the referendum a fair and independent one, recognized and verified by the international community, or was it a sham referendum under threat of invasion, like the one in Austria for joining Nazi Germany, with a huge YES option in the middle, and a small NO option in the corner[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_referendum#/media/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_refere...
- coldtea 4y ago
  >But was the referendum a fair and independent one, recognized and verified by the international community The same "international community" lead by a number of imperialist and colonialist countries still at the time maintaining protectorates and colonies all around the world whose local populations fought with huge toil for their independece? That would be like the pot recognizing and verifying the validity of the kettle's blackness...
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >The same "international community" lead by a number of imperialist and colonialist countries OK, touché! True, most of Europe was a mess back then, with every country trying to establish an empire or defend itself from being invaded by one. There weren't many countries you could count on for an independent perspective. You had to be pro $SOME_EMPIRE and against $SOME_OTHER_EMPIRE. Unless you were Switzerland, there was no middle-ground option.
- pohuing 4y ago
  It's noteworthy that Anschluß had huge support in the 20s and 30s but the Entente forbade a unification of the newly shrunken Austria and Germany. Had the referendum happened earlier it might well have passed without such underhanded tactics.
somenameforme 4y ago
The referendum in Crimea has been repeated by numerous Western organizations, including Gallup. [1] The results are nearly identical to what Russia said they were. Russia claimed a 97% "yes" with an 83% turnout rate. Gallup found that 82.8% of Crimeans agreed that the poll reflected the will of the people. It's two ways of saying, more or less, the exact same thing. The minority that opposed joining Russia chose to boycott the referendum, which is why it was 97% yes instead of ~83%. It's going to breakdown largely on ethnicity. Crimea is about 68% ethnic Russian, 13% ethnic Tatar (which is an autonomous republic within Russia), and then about 16% ethnic Ukrainian. If you're looking to history - this event mirrors Kosovo, just with roles reversed. An ethnic minority, geographically isolated, within Serbia declare their independence. This is rejected by Russia and backed by the US who ensures forces are on the ready to "enforce" Kosovo's independence. The big difference is that the one remained relatively peaceful with no further largescale escalation. Ukraine, by contrast, was determined to retake Crimea and clearly had the full backing of the West. So, in many ways, this war started 9 years ago. [1] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-a...
- The_Colonel 4y ago
  > If you're looking to history - this event mirrors Kosovo, just with roles reversed. With the "minor" difference that Serbia was committing ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, while no such thing happened in Crimea. > The big difference is that the one remained relatively peaceful with no further largescale escalation. Ukraine, by contrast, was determined to retake Crimea and clearly had the full backing of the West. That's completely false. Crimean border has been more peaceful than Kosovo-Serbia border.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  There's a whopping bit of selection bias in that Gallup poll; it polls only people still living in Crimea. Some of those are Russians who immigrated in, and there's a big missing chunk of people who left because of the invasion. It should be unsurprising that the folks who stayed tend to be the folks who support the Russian annexation. The opinion of those who fled matters, too.
skeletal88 4y ago
Referendum? Which one? After they had forced their military bases on us, there were elections where only one candidate for each district was allowed and of course only candidates who supported the soviet union could be elected, it was a totally fake election. Then the new "parliament" voted to join the soviet union. So some stupid russians still say "but you joined voluntarily!!" and so on.

by enaaem 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

But was the referendum a fair and independent one, recognized and verified by the international community, or was it a sham referendum under threat of invasion, like the one in Austria for joining Nazi Germany, with a huge YES option in the middle, and a small NO option in the corner[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_referendum#/media/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_refere...

coldtea 4y ago
>But was the referendum a fair and independent one, recognized and verified by the international community The same "international community" lead by a number of imperialist and colonialist countries still at the time maintaining protectorates and colonies all around the world whose local populations fought with huge toil for their independece? That would be like the pot recognizing and verifying the validity of the kettle's blackness...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >The same "international community" lead by a number of imperialist and colonialist countries OK, touché! True, most of Europe was a mess back then, with every country trying to establish an empire or defend itself from being invaded by one. There weren't many countries you could count on for an independent perspective. You had to be pro $SOME_EMPIRE and against $SOME_OTHER_EMPIRE. Unless you were Switzerland, there was no middle-ground option.
pohuing 4y ago
It's noteworthy that Anschluß had huge support in the 20s and 30s but the Entente forbade a unification of the newly shrunken Austria and Germany. Had the referendum happened earlier it might well have passed without such underhanded tactics.

somenameforme 4y ago

The referendum in Crimea has been repeated by numerous Western organizations, including Gallup. [1] The results are nearly identical to what Russia said they were. Russia claimed a 97% "yes" with an 83% turnout rate. Gallup found that 82.8% of Crimeans agreed that the poll reflected the will of the people. It's two ways of saying, more or less, the exact same thing. The minority that opposed joining Russia chose to boycott the referendum, which is why it was 97% yes instead of ~83%. It's going to breakdown largely on ethnicity. Crimea is about 68% ethnic Russian, 13% ethnic Tatar (which is an autonomous republic within Russia), and then about 16% ethnic Ukrainian. If you're looking to history - this event mirrors Kosovo, just with roles reversed. An ethnic minority, geographically isolated, within Serbia declare their independence. This is rejected by Russia and backed by the US who ensures forces are on the ready to "enforce" Kosovo's independence. The big difference is that the one remained relatively peaceful with no further largescale escalation. Ukraine, by contrast, was determined to retake Crimea and clearly had the full backing of the West. So, in many ways, this war started 9 years ago. [1] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-a...

The_Colonel 4y ago
> If you're looking to history - this event mirrors Kosovo, just with roles reversed. With the "minor" difference that Serbia was committing ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, while no such thing happened in Crimea. > The big difference is that the one remained relatively peaceful with no further largescale escalation. Ukraine, by contrast, was determined to retake Crimea and clearly had the full backing of the West. That's completely false. Crimean border has been more peaceful than Kosovo-Serbia border.
ceejayoz 4y ago
There's a whopping bit of selection bias in that Gallup poll; it polls only people still living in Crimea. Some of those are Russians who immigrated in, and there's a big missing chunk of people who left because of the invasion. It should be unsurprising that the folks who stayed tend to be the folks who support the Russian annexation. The opinion of those who fled matters, too.

skeletal88 4y ago

Referendum? Which one? After they had forced their military bases on us, there were elections where only one candidate for each district was allowed and of course only candidates who supported the soviet union could be elected, it was a totally fake election. Then the new "parliament" voted to join the soviet union. So some stupid russians still say "but you joined voluntarily!!" and so on.